tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post102607171429063860..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: If the whole Christ is present under both species of the Eucharist, why do we say "The Body of Christ" and "The Blood of Christ"?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3415467563768468812011-10-31T14:09:30.846-07:002011-10-31T14:09:30.846-07:00"However, I would point out one other thing: ..."However, I would point out one other thing: When St. Thomas discusses the fittingness of bread for the matter of the Eucharist, he states that it is better than meat (i.e. it was more fitting for Jesus to use bread than to use meat at the Last Supper).<br />The objection is that meat would more closely call to mind that the Eucharist is Christ's own flesh.<br />But St. Thomas responds that bread lasts longer than meat (esp unleavened bread) and thus the use of bread directs the Church to reserve the Sacrament for adoration."<br /><br />Does St. Thomas not address the matter of continuity of worship as well? IMHO, the fittingness of bread is that it provides continuity with OT worship.Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-12567813832335620482011-06-30T15:24:24.285-07:002011-06-30T15:24:24.285-07:00Chatto,
It is indeed mostly a practical matter tha...Chatto,<br />It is indeed mostly a practical matter that we adore the Host ... as you point out, it is difficult to preserve the Precious Blood, as the accidents tend to corrupt.<br /><br />However, I would point out one other thing: When St. Thomas discusses the fittingness of bread for the matter of the Eucharist, he states that it is better than meat (i.e. it was more fitting for Jesus to use bread than to use meat at the Last Supper).<br />The objection is that meat would more closely call to mind that the Eucharist is Christ's own flesh.<br />But St. Thomas responds that bread lasts longer than meat (esp unleavened bread) and thus the use of bread directs the Church to reserve the Sacrament for adoration.<br /><br />Hence, there is a logical (though not absolute) connection between the Host and Eucharistic Adoration.<br /><br />Peace to you!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87715524028505494942011-06-30T15:20:14.765-07:002011-06-30T15:20:14.765-07:00Alessandro,
Nicely put!Alessandro,<br />Nicely put!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-68121253960831031542011-06-30T15:19:50.860-07:002011-06-30T15:19:50.860-07:00@Ross,
About that which we love, the Church never ...@Ross,<br />About that which we love, the Church never tires of writing.<br />Hence, while you see the many tracts and spiritual/theological reflections on Christ's greatest gift of himself in the Eucharist to be "too much print" and a mere "waste" ... the Church, because she loves the Eucharist and loves Christ present therein, sees these writings as expressions of love.<br /><br />Most troubling of all is your opposition of the Real Presence and the Mystical Body (the Church) ... as though devotion to the Real Presence necessitates failing to think of the Church and the salvation of the world.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38398243901291041482011-06-29T08:48:13.222-07:002011-06-29T08:48:13.222-07:00TO ALL: This weekend I will try to get caught up o...TO ALL: This weekend I will try to get caught up on comments from the week.<br />[I have been away from a computer for the last several days]<br /><br />Thank you for your patience!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-35843854001396775262011-06-28T14:41:49.369-07:002011-06-28T14:41:49.369-07:00Hi Father, another quick question. Is it simply a ...Hi Father, another quick question. Is it simply a practical matter that the Host is displayed for Adoration, and not the Precious Blood? If a way could be found to display It for Adoration, would that be proper? Perhaps something like the phial of Blood in the basilica in Bruges?Chattohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488939389859451887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52719060964959973292011-06-28T09:43:42.558-07:002011-06-28T09:43:42.558-07:00I wish we had received a sermon like this on Sunda...I wish we had received a sermon like this on Sunday, but the Deacon gave the "homily" and reinforced the mistaken notion that unless you receive both, you do not receive the whole.<br /><br />I really grow weary of this.<br /><br />VeronicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42208359898983100692011-06-28T09:29:05.063-07:002011-06-28T09:29:05.063-07:00My Mormon mom goes to Mass with me when she visits...My Mormon mom goes to Mass with me when she visits and is very docile. She was with me this past Sunday and was of course deluged with all the references to Body and Blood, including a Corpus Christi procession afterward. She had some sweet and telling questions about the species, etc afterward. I just laughed inside and thought: mauahahaha, He's got you now!Bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78167334168439358752011-06-28T08:02:58.207-07:002011-06-28T08:02:58.207-07:00Jack - won't the priest in the Eastern Rites s...Jack - won't the priest in the Eastern Rites say "The Body and Blood of Christ" at Communion because you receive them both at the same time? I was a Russian liturgy recently, wherein both species were given at the same time by means of a golden spoon. As Fr. R points out, this doesn't affect the meaning of this article.<br /><br />Also, it's worth bearing in mind that Fr. R is a Latin Rite priest, and so will draw on his experience in that Rite, and it's attendant writers like St. Thomas. Nothing in that implies that Fr. R is ignorant of the other half of our church. Want to address the balance? Find a priest in one of the Eastern Rites to write a blog (I suggest calling it 'Eastern Writes') and they can talk about Divine Liturgies and the work of St. Gregory Palamas to their (and your, and indeed our) heart's content.Chattohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488939389859451887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39991585481685450502011-06-28T07:21:33.730-07:002011-06-28T07:21:33.730-07:00Do I believe in the Real Presence? You bet I do. ...Do I believe in the Real Presence? You bet I do. What I am trying ot say is say is too much print is wasted on what happens to the bread and not nearly enough about the transformation of the gathered assembly into the Real Presence of Jesus in the world. <br /><br />Ross Warnell<br />Smithville, MORoss Warnellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-60076453698547866542011-06-28T05:22:38.812-07:002011-06-28T05:22:38.812-07:00I hope I can expand Reginaldus' reasoning on t...I hope I can expand Reginaldus' reasoning on the difference between magic and the "in persona Christi" theology. The main difference is set on three elements: (1) Whence the power comes from; (2) What makes the rites effective; (3) What it is destined for.<br /><br />In the case of magic, the shaman claims to possess innate powers and is trained to perform the rites correctly to release that power. The power is a gift to control the natural elements, and the rites themselves when performed are effective by themselves.<br /><br />In the case of sacraments, the priest is conferred a special grace by the Church, the latter being instructed to do so by Christ himself. The rites don't release any power from the person of the priest, but from the person of Jesus through the material action of the priest (which is the meaning of "in persona Christi"). The priest has no power at all by himself, but the hands are words of the priest are borrowed by Christ in virtue of the Holy Orders the priest has received. Also, all prayers are oriented to God and are never set down as direct commands to the matter. The priest doesn't say: "Bread turn into Christ's Body". On the contrary, he asks God to listen to his prayer in the name of Jesus and for the spiritual (not material!) benefit of the faithful.<br /><br />In conclusion, the priest is no magician: Christ is the power behind the sacraments, not some impersonal power within the hands of a shaman-like figure; also, the benefit is spiritual rather then material; finally, they're not in the form of direct orders, but in a euchological, prayer-like style, as God is the ultimate authority deciding whether the sacrament is correctly performed by a legitimate performer.<br /><br />In Christ,<br />AlessandroAlessandrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06743550176213036527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-77667726168088159112011-06-27T22:09:24.936-07:002011-06-27T22:09:24.936-07:00Hello Fr.,
It had never previously occurred to me...Hello Fr.,<br /><br />It had never previously occurred to me that the body and blood received in the sacrament were lifeless. Neither had it ever occurred to me that the sacrament depended for the completeness of the presence of Christ under each of the species upon His glorification.<br /><br />Question: If the presence of the complete Christ depends upon the glorification of Christ, why does not this glorification give life to what would otherwise be His lifeless body, as His Spirit gives to our lifeless bodies at baptism?<br /><br />Question: WHY is the real presence of Christ as a sacramental presence logically dependent upon His presence in His proper species at a particular moment? No doubt I am revealing great ignorance here, but why cannot Christ simply be entirely present because He wills it to be so, as a miracle?<br /><br />Thank you so much Fr., I really appreciate your work!<br /><br />Regards,<br />yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87168070596871499232011-06-27T19:36:12.682-07:002011-06-27T19:36:12.682-07:00@Ross, If you cannot see the difference between th...@Ross, If you cannot see the difference between the ex opere operato power of the Sacraments and the black-magic of a shaman, then you lack Faith ... and this post is written for Catholics, not as an apologetic argument to convince protestants.<br />In any case the difference is obvious ... the shaman is of satan or men, but the priest is of Christ who is the Lord and God of heaven and earth!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47911033300947106242011-06-27T19:32:58.198-07:002011-06-27T19:32:58.198-07:00Jack, Your comment makes a good point ... however,...Jack, Your comment makes a good point ... however, it is really too bad that your extreme sensitivity to the East/West divide blinds you to the obvious theological point.<br /> <br />In any Rite (of East or West), the priest consecrates with the specification of Body and Blood ... "This is my body" ... "This is the cup/chalice of my blood". <br />So the theology and the praxis hold for the whole Catholic Church is the same.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-2091652867293200302011-06-27T18:52:45.396-07:002011-06-27T18:52:45.396-07:00Part of the problem stems, I suspect, from the fac...Part of the problem stems, I suspect, from the fact that we teach that we receive our Lord under "both" species instead of under "each" species, thereby contributing to (or reinforcing) the notion that the bread is the Body, and the wine is the Blood, so receiving "only" one is somehow incomplete.<br /><br />This kind of imprecision is why the new, more accurate translation of Mass was done in the first place: to clear up theological misunderstandings and guide the faithful down the right path. While I think it's wonderful that we're able to receive under both species, maybe it was a bit of a mistake if the result is that so many faithful believe their Communion somehow incomplete if they don't receive both.VetusMoreshttp:noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-23005421679831190282011-06-27T16:43:00.675-07:002011-06-27T16:43:00.675-07:00You say the Council of Trent declared that the bod...You say the Council of Trent declared that the body of our Lord is present in the Host “by the force of the words” (ex vi verborum). So, how is the Priest different from just another Shaman? The person with the special powers says the right formula and God is called forth. I do believe we need a better Eucharistic Theology!<br /><br />Ross Warnell<br />Smithville, MissouriRoss Warnellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-58126913549803929832011-06-27T16:18:47.523-07:002011-06-27T16:18:47.523-07:00\\Since we receive the whole Christ (body and bloo...\\Since we receive the whole Christ (body and blood, soul and divinity) when we receive communion, why does the priest not distribute communion with the words, “The body and the blood of Christ”?\\<br /><br />As a matter of fact, the priest DOES do so in the Byzantine and other classical Eastern liturgies, where Communion is given under both kinds as a matter of course.<br /><br />Remember, the Roman Church is NOT the totality of the Catholic Church, or even the standard by which the others are judged. ALL are equally Catholic.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01133668737743486061noreply@blogger.com