tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post1272683096500032369..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: "Fragments" of the Eucharistic SpeciesFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56960912481042032852013-03-11T10:00:01.561-07:002013-03-11T10:00:01.561-07:00Hmmm...
I am not arguing... just trying to get a ...Hmmm...<br /><br />I am not arguing... just trying to get a better understanding:<br /><br />How can it be said that whether or not the Eucharistic species remains can be determined by whether or not the size of the particle in question appears larger than a dust particle, and seems to the viewer to be a bread fragment? We mustn't subjectivize the real Presence... a given particle either is Jesus, or is not Jesus. The problem is, we are using the word "appearance" equivocally here. Whether or not the *appearance* of bread and wine remain is not a function of whether or not it *appears to us* to be bread or wine, it is a fact pertaining to the accidents themselves, not our perception of them. <br /><br />Now, the dissolving of flour in water (or stomach acid, of course) renders it no longer flour. But the careful removal of a tiny particle of flour from a spoonful of flour; a particle so small it seems a mere dust particle, does not render this particle no longer flour -- It is indeed still flour, even if it does not appear to usu to be that (right?). <br /><br />(I certainly agree that no one is culpable for the sin of Eucharistic desecration if the particle in question was indinstinguishable to them from a dust particle... unless his act was voluntary in cause by willfully lacking the care due.)DOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18243481485409235583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-50531371298900060732012-10-06T09:08:43.458-07:002012-10-06T09:08:43.458-07:00With Communion in the hand a practice in churches ...With Communion in the hand a practice in churches throughout the world, is it a given that there will be Particles around the altar where people have received? Then are people walking over Our Lord inadvertently? I am not a peace and somewhat afraid to step in my church after this consideration (and I have a basically good parish). What about those who sneeze, etc. after receiving? Any enlightenment would be appreciated. I know Our Lord gave us this Wonderful Sacrament as a Gift, but what if parishioners are not educated in the Fact that Our Lord is Present in each Particle? Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42160795455560843982012-09-15T05:12:04.196-07:002012-09-15T05:12:04.196-07:00We love that the Lord has given us this wonderful ...We love that the Lord has given us this wonderful gift of Himself, in the bread and the wine.<br /><br />To invite us, real sinners, to His table, is absolutely marvelous.<br /><br />Thank you.Steve Martinhttp://theoldadam.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61554172412262102762012-09-13T17:17:55.381-07:002012-09-13T17:17:55.381-07:00To all:
Don't worry! I will be back to postin...To all:<br /><br />Don't worry! I will be back to posting soon! Things are just soooo busy here at the parish, preparing for the Year of Faith.<br /><br />Expect a post around the end of next week, which will explain that I will be back to very regular posting again by October!<br /><br />Thank you all for your prayers! :-)Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55992436254710899142012-09-13T13:22:57.087-07:002012-09-13T13:22:57.087-07:00Anonymous 4:14, thank you. I, too, am wondering w...Anonymous 4:14, thank you. I, too, am wondering what happened to Father!<br /><br />VeronicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-60104412265277766342012-09-11T16:14:28.502-07:002012-09-11T16:14:28.502-07:00Where've you been? Come back! I miss this bl...Where've you been? Come back! I miss this blog!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-17835330080022297162012-09-09T14:11:07.215-07:002012-09-09T14:11:07.215-07:00Fr i have found Our Lord on the floor over 160 tim...Fr i have found Our Lord on the floor over 160 times. No assistance ever. No relief. It is about faith in Christ. I keep you in my prayers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-81819380515819273232012-08-25T18:39:20.510-07:002012-08-25T18:39:20.510-07:00@archpriest,
Thank you for providing the details r...@archpriest,<br />Thank you for providing the details regarding the Orthodox practice! Very interesting!<br /><br />Regarding the mixture of wine with a particle of the Host ... this cannot consecrate that wine ... for the wine is consecrated by the prayer of the priest.<br />In days past, there was some debate about this ... but the faith of the Church is that the consecration is effected through the words ... Trent condemns anything else as a heresy.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-59529415830921189082012-08-24T21:41:16.550-07:002012-08-24T21:41:16.550-07:00I can tell you what the Orthodox do if the wine fr...I can tell you what the Orthodox do if the wine freezes. It was freezing in the mountains of Cappadocia. That is why we pour hot water into the chalice before Communion. I believe that every particle is the body and blood of Christ. That is why we are very careful to consume every particle and drop of wine. During the Presanctified Divine Liturgy, a piece of the host upon which a few drops of wine is consecrated during the Divine Liturgy before the Presanctified Divine Liturgy is served later in the week is broken off and placed in the Chalice of unconsecrated wine. The mixing of the unconsecrated wine with the consecrated host which also has consecrated wine on it consecrates the entire chalice of wine. If I should notice that I have not consecrated enough wine I pour more wine into the chalice. The unconsecrated wine is consecrated by being united with the consecrated wine. Thus Christ is present in the smallest particle of the host and smallest drop of the consecrated wine.<br /><br />Archpriest John W. MorrisArchpriest John Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15248014086614317924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38660826702555107032012-08-22T21:30:05.855-07:002012-08-22T21:30:05.855-07:00It seems the gathering of the little left overs, f...It seems the gathering of the little left overs, from the twelve (tribe) baskets so that none be lost can show that all can recognize the many "particles" as the single whole He broke apart here in this lower world of duality. I recall He said " I am with you always", which means we have been with His singularity always. It is a mystery to the carnal mind.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12098483355296327590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-79912935772578918142012-08-10T18:19:13.945-07:002012-08-10T18:19:13.945-07:00My dear Woman of the house, thanks! I have decided...My dear Woman of the house, thanks! I have decided against the retreat, I can see no benefit from abstaining from the Eucharist when one is in a state of grace. It seems to me like abstaining from breathing and praying, in short from Life itself. Perhaps dear Father can suggest some wisdom from Tradition on this matter although I fear I should have posed this question on the Ask Father thread. God bless you.DomJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11786302620469277753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-24214260376041819542012-08-08T13:27:35.838-07:002012-08-08T13:27:35.838-07:00Dom JP, do you have to go on that retreat? It ...Dom JP, do you have to go on that retreat? It sounds really misguided. I got stuck on a non Eucharistic retreat one time, and boy did I regret it, because in the end, there were lots of other problems there (theological and otherwise) that stemmed from the other. <br /><br />Listen to your gut!<br />God bless you,The Woman of the Househttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354570273331860879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38434926178299211992012-08-03T03:00:21.363-07:002012-08-03T03:00:21.363-07:00@ Jack (July 28, 2012 11:10 PM )
This is a common...@ Jack (July 28, 2012 11:10 PM )<br /><br />This is a common antiquarianistic argument used by proponents of all the novel practices – an obvious thing is that eastern Churches generally haven't undergone the theological and liturgical development which happened in the Latin Church from Scholastic period and onwards. The precise reason why the Protestants have banned communion on tongue and introduced communion in hand (as well as other novelties which show an astonishing parallel with the Novus Ordo reform: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/ordo.htm ) is abandonment of the belief in Real Presence, and as we look at the current situation in the Church, we could well recognize the results of such reforms. So obviously, communion in hand has very different significance in context of Eastern Churches which manage to conserve its antique status of ecclesiastical life, and in the Latin Church in which the whole situation is much diverse and 'developed' in some sense.<br /><br />It is also well worth noting that the EMHCs are mere abuse to the true requirements of the liturgy – the document Redemptionis Sacramentum establishes clear conditions regarding circumstances when there actually happens to be an extraordinary situation, and accordingly the extraordinary ministers could be used – and we all well know that none of this circumstances really occur, but that the actual practice of introducing EMs is a result of pure minimalism and laicising, modernistic process which is widespread in the Church.celarentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-60141069689290221932012-08-01T17:24:32.589-07:002012-08-01T17:24:32.589-07:00Father your opinion please. I have been invited on...Father your opinion please. I have been invited on a retreat that involves abstaining from the most Holy Eucharist for 2 days and then receiving at Mass on the third 'to make it like the first time again'. This fills me with dread and puts me off what appears to be an otherwise worthwhile and solid retreat. How could turning down communion with God be of benefit to one in the state of grace? My whole life is centered on daily reception of the Body and Blood of Jesus and the very thought of a day without this supreme gift of love pains me. Your opinion please and any enlightenment from the Fathers or Saints would be morst appreciated. Dominic John PaulDomJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11786302620469277753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-51727007430163638772012-08-01T01:06:11.654-07:002012-08-01T01:06:11.654-07:00@Responsible Thinker [RT],
Good work pointing out...@Responsible Thinker [RT],<br /><br />Good work pointing out that neither bread nor wine can be chemically represented in an absolute manner.<br /><br />Nevertheless, your analysis is still basically the same as Marko's.<br /><br />@Fr:<br /><br />The sign value theory and the accidents theory are at odds when we consider, as we have been reminded, that Christ remains in us so long as the accidents remain. However, while Christ is in us, it cannot be said that His presence remains by virtue of the sign value of the sacrament, since no one sees the consecrated bread once it has been consumed. Thus He must remain and subsist by some other means.<br /><br />Above Fr you say that we would need a microscope to purify vessels if we do not accept the sign value theory. I'm not sure why that would necessarily be the case. If microscopic bits of consecrated bread or wine remain, how could their presence cause the vessels to be impure?<br /><br />So, I think we have to admit that Marko is substantially correct, while adding that RT is also correct to point out that we cannot even make the final determination of whether the eucharist remains on a microscopic level because we cannot definitively answer the question 'when does bread cease to be bread.'<br /><br />regards<br />yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39596267814056293762012-07-31T19:09:00.760-07:002012-07-31T19:09:00.760-07:00Scotty Ellis,
It is not necessary at all to explai...Scotty Ellis,<br />It is not necessary at all to explain the Sacraments in terms of medieval Aristotelian metaphysics, as if God had given the Apostles these things. If you find the scholastic medieval approach to understanding the Sacraments then go and read those of our Eastern Catholic brethren who have the same faith but different expression. It seems to me that much of your exasperation regarding the faith is to try and know and explain things which a mind that struggles with faith ought not even consider to try to know before taking the first few steps in faith.<br /><br />There is a reason that the early Church did not reveal its mysteries to those outside the Church. They did not have adequate faith and so could not adequately understand, as St. Augustine writes to have faith seeking understanding. There are adequate questions to these questions but the answers will not save your soul. Only due prayer, humility, temperance, and God's grace can save a soul.<br /><br />I do not mean to be a nuisance to you so as to repudiate you, and we've spoken before, but I implore you to take good consideration of your soul. If you find prayer difficult, read the spiritual classics of the saints, like St. Augustine's Confessions. Faith is difficult to have as an intellectual model, but be attentive and let God grant you faith for His yoke is light and easy. Faith is primarily a trust and hope in things unseen, specifically those mysteries of God. Trust God.<br /><br />Regarding the Holy Eucharist, Christ Himself, the Church doesn't need to explain itself in terms of Aristotelian metaphysics and even the Council of Trent does not speak in an Aristotelian sense when it says that the wine and bread change into the Body and Blood under the appearance (species) of bread and wine. That is why the good Father has explained that if the appearance of bread and wine is no longer discernible naturally that the Real Presence has ended. It is possible that the good Father is wrong on this matter, but what is important is to seek God's truth in love and humility to Him who holds us to account for our words to one another. Your charge that Holy Mother Church asks us to not ask too many questions is uncharitable. Did you not hear Christ's words, "Ask, and it shall be given, seek, and it shall be revealed, knock, and it shall be opened unto you." But in your asking remember that you, and each one of us, comes as a beggar to the Church and to the Lord to grant us His wisdom. It cannot be snatched from books, but must be something revealed to us by God in prayer. We can learn doctrines but to give up humility and charity and right worship of God is to gain nothing but words.<br /><br />I hope that God helps you in your crisis of faith. I understand your question regarding molecules, and if you have due patience, perhaps God will answer you.<br /><br />God bless.Steven Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12601858164034778521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-68222272231628801182012-07-31T15:37:07.775-07:002012-07-31T15:37:07.775-07:00Gino R., I can relate. It is a sad spectacle to b...Gino R., I can relate. It is a sad spectacle to behold. All the more reason why we should stay to make reparation for what goes on.<br />God have mercy on us!<br />VeronicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-24523506304850014352012-07-31T15:34:25.219-07:002012-07-31T15:34:25.219-07:00Father Ryan, what does someone like myself do when...Father Ryan, what does someone like myself do when they are in a parish where no care is taken or given to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament? We had a "change of guard" (two new priests) this month, and they undid in one month what the other two priests took years to accomplish. I am heartbroken. Can you give me some pointers to help me cope with this?<br />Thank you and God bless you!<br />VeronicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26024762023028771552012-07-30T13:27:58.423-07:002012-07-30T13:27:58.423-07:00Father, could you please adress my comment from Ju...Father, could you please adress my comment from July 28, 2012 8:28 PM? ...the big one...if you have time...Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-7096366055984987602012-07-30T06:24:16.139-07:002012-07-30T06:24:16.139-07:00marko, bread is an aggregate, not a simple chemica...marko, bread is an aggregate, not a simple chemical element or composite. So much for the molecules of bread. As far as a more modern scientific explanation, there can't be any, for modern science only deals with material, empirical phenomena and ignores metaphysics. But metaphysics is no nonsense, since it delves into the underlying principle of all beings,as for instance, the fact that I am not just the sum of all my atoms and particles, because no purely material rhing can reflect of itself as we do when we are conscious of our I.Kokohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01845593927484940465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78389401444025136282012-07-29T20:45:17.856-07:002012-07-29T20:45:17.856-07:00Excellent post. This is a subject that is widely ...Excellent post. This is a subject that is widely misunderstood from a wide perspective. Our priest need to do more to educate the faithful on this subject.sepryorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10403958300493621094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-21974934630111093732012-07-29T16:04:05.663-07:002012-07-29T16:04:05.663-07:00At the NO parish in my area they use many Extraord...At the NO parish in my area they use many Extraordinary Ministers. The priest only cleanses the chalice used at the consecration at the end of mass. A EM usually collects all of the vessels used by during mass and takes them back into the sacristy to be cleansed in a Sacrarium. Also the purificators are taken back to be rinsed in the Scrarium before laundering. All of the vessels I believe, including the chalice used by the priest at the consecration, are so cleansed. I was always taught that the vessels were not purified until cleansed in the Scrarium, am I wrong.<br /><br />Also I am concerned that when the EM collects the vessels they will often stop and chat with people in the nave on the way to the sacristy, is this licit?Iowa Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15073940558313961125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-80307425887577827022012-07-29T12:55:57.358-07:002012-07-29T12:55:57.358-07:00First of all, there are no "bread molecules.&...First of all, there are no "bread molecules." Bread is a more or less homogenous mixture of various compounds.<br /><br />Now, the relevant canons state:<br /><br />"Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.<br /><br />§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.<br /><br />§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled."<br /><br />Now, wheat is itself a heterogeneous substance containing a variety of compounds, and the exact mixture of these compounds depends from variety to variety. The only compositional substance that seems to be "necessary" (from an authoritative standpoint) is the protein gluten. It doesn't apparently matter how much else of the wheat plant is used, because the flour can be made from wheat with or without the germ or the bran. So, we can give a more modern definition that legitimate bread for Eucharistic purposes is composed of gluten and other incidental proteins as well as other optional and variable component parts of a wheat grain, sufficiently baked.<br /><br />So, Marko, it's not so much a matter of seeing if it is a "bread molecule." I suppose the only thing you could do is analyze a sample to see if it meets the above criteria: does it contain gluten and incidental wheat components?<br /><br />That being said, all this talk about "can you tell if it's bread" seems rather...subjective and even whimsical, to say the least. Bread does not cease to be bread simply because it is small. Assumedly there would be a point at which a particle does not have a single protein chain of gluten, but such microscopic fragments would not even qualify as appearing like "dust" (which is a catch-all word for a variety of substances, NOT a substance in itself). <br /><br />So then, the question: if these crumbs are no longer Jesus, then what are they? Did it "revert" to bread? Because under any non-arbitrary definition of "bread" it is still bread.Responsible Thinkernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-5993371825561234162012-07-29T11:54:03.914-07:002012-07-29T11:54:03.914-07:00Clinton R,
I love the connection between the boy ...Clinton R, <br />I love the connection between the boy and the altar boys! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47761396352281005492012-07-29T11:53:28.220-07:002012-07-29T11:53:28.220-07:00@Anonymous and Marko,
Yes, of course Christ is sti...@Anonymous and Marko,<br />Yes, of course Christ is still present when the Host is in our mouth ... the idea that simply touching the Host to saliva would make it no more the Eucharist is just as silly as thinking that any food ceases to be what it is simply by touching our tongue!<br /><br />Thank you, Marko, for the comment! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.com