tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post1502835468916286749..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: When did Christ reach the "age of reason"?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42578381498430770152013-12-24T14:50:42.315-08:002013-12-24T14:50:42.315-08:00Christ knew Who He was and was One with the Father...Christ knew Who He was and was One with the Father and the Spirit from conception. I agree with the Early Church Fathers that He had the use of reason from His conception. That He learned in His Humanity is true, but He was never separate for His Godhead. <br /><br />I know people with IQs in the 160s and I know one through a friend with an IQ in the 170s. These people come into reason very early in life and are competent to reason things out. Why not God? <br /><br />It is dangerous to speculate too much without reading long and wide on what the Fathers and Doctors say on this point, as well as the Popes in infallible statements.<br /><br />How can we understand God in His Incarnation? Only in heaven or in the unitive state on earth, the state of saints, can one approach such knowledge.Supertradmumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07829935047036023159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-31284528211228810922012-01-16T08:31:48.191-08:002012-01-16T08:31:48.191-08:00Last point: I never said his human knowledge was a...Last point: I never said his human knowledge was absolutely unlimited ... nor that it was equal to the omniscience of the Logos.<br />I don't know why you would accuse me of such a horrible thing!<br /><br />As I wrote in the article: "his knowledge was not absolutely unlimited, but was unlimited in relation to created realities"<br />This is why it was still human knowledge ... the human mind is able to know all that God has created, even though it cannot fully comprehend God or all the possibilities in God (as does the Logos).Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-59570906494088359522012-01-16T08:30:00.619-08:002012-01-16T08:30:00.619-08:00Seraphim,
Finally, the fact that Jesus had the bea...Seraphim,<br />Finally, the fact that Jesus had the beatific vision meant that he was able to use reason without relying upon phantasms gained through sense experience ... this is why, even as an infant, he had perfect use of reason.<br />And the Fathers of the Church (many of them) say that he wept as a baby because he knew our sins. <br />Also, they tell us that Jesus prayed as an infant ... now, he certainly wasn't praying in his divinity, but in his humanity.<br /><br />Also, did Christ merit our salvation by his birth? Did he merit in his circumcision?<br />If he merited, then he had to have use of free will.<br /><br />Why don't you cite a Doctor of the Church who explicitly denies that Jesus had the use of free will and reason as an infant?<br />I've cited St. Thomas ... where is your citation to the contrary?<br /><br />Or is it enough for you to just run around accusing people of heresies?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91831493319465352342012-01-16T08:25:40.928-08:002012-01-16T08:25:40.928-08:00Seraphim,
I'm sorry but I just don't have ...Seraphim,<br />I'm sorry but I just don't have time to get into this further right now.<br /><br />It should be clear that your accusation of Apollinarianism is misplaced ... I have very claerly affirmed that the infant Jesus had perfect HUMAN knowledge and perfect used of HUMAN reason.<br />Now, anyone should see that HUMAN knowledge and HUMAN reason require a HUMAN soul ... thus there is no way that you can legitimately claim I (or St. Thomas) am an Apollinarianist.<br /><br />You can disagree ... you can say that I don't give enough room for acquired knowledge ... you can say that I'm not based on Scripture ... but what you cannot say is that I am denying that Jesus had a human soul.<br />That is a very silly claim ... and you've made it twice now.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-84649316585090631142012-01-15T21:21:29.994-08:002012-01-15T21:21:29.994-08:00Father, perfect human knowledge would not exceed t...Father, perfect human knowledge would not exceed the bounds of what an infant's brain is capable of. Yes, Christ would be omniscient through His divinity. That does not mean that in His reason, even at the age of infancy, is capable of that which no human mind is capable of. He had a created human reason subject to the nature (that is, all the limitations) of human reason. To replace that humanity with the omniscience of the Logos is the Apollinarian heresy.<br /><br />Yes, Christ was interceding for and deifying all creation even from His infancy. But not because He skipped the ordinary human stages of development.<br /><br />I ask your humble pardon for the brusque manner in which I stated my comment and the uncharitable unfair implication of formal heresy, but my theological objection to your article stands.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00147139664156379333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-81499626749749303022012-01-15T20:49:31.514-08:002012-01-15T20:49:31.514-08:00@Seraphim,
Speaking more to the theological point ...@Seraphim,<br />Speaking more to the theological point ... a man does not become less human when he learns something, neither does he lose his human soul when he receives infused knowledge.<br /><br />Why then would you be so impious as to say that the infused knowledge given to Christ from the first moment of his conception would mean that he did not have a human soul -- and thus accuse me of Apollinarianism?<br /><br />If I didn't lose my humanity when I learned Italian (for example), why would Christ be less human for knowing Chinese.<br /><br />If St. Teresa of Avila did not lose her soul when she received infused knowledge through ecstatic prayer, why would Christ have no human soul simply because he receive the beatific vision from the first moment of his conception?<br /><br />My brother, you know not what you say. Better to remain silent.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8182339635765782712012-01-15T20:46:33.594-08:002012-01-15T20:46:33.594-08:00@Seraphim,
It is impious to accuse St. Thomas and ...@Seraphim,<br />It is impious to accuse St. Thomas and the other Church Doctors who speak clearly to this teaching of the heresy of Apolinarianism.<br />Further, I personally take offense to that accusation.<br /><br />I have never said that Christ did not have a human soul ... in fact, in this article, I have specifically said that he had perfect HUMAN knowledge -- and if he had human knowledge (perfect even from his conception) then he necessarily had a human soul.<br /><br />I expect you to retract that libelous accusation.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29829916352144979102012-01-15T20:43:15.023-08:002012-01-15T20:43:15.023-08:00Father,
This teaching is pure Apollinarianism. C...Father,<br /><br />This teaching is pure Apollinarianism. Christ was fully, completely human. His mind developed according to the same laws of developmental psychology that everyone else's does (and developmental psychology has moved FAR beyond the simplistic two-tier level that posits an "age of reason" when one's "rational faculty" magically switches on - we know that it's so much more complicated and gradual than that, and the Latin Church might as well stop using that medieval hogwash as a pretext for denying Holy Communion to the little children that Christ called to come to Him).<br /><br />He was one person, and ultimately one cannot separate His human and divine natures in anything more than an abstract sense. With St. Cyril of Alexandria I confess "one incarnate Nature of God the Word", but the Chalcedonian formulation is useful for distinguishing what is proper to His humanity and what is proper to His divintiy. And His omniscience is quite clearly proper to the divine Word through His divinity - in which regard it is completely inappropriate to speak of "ratiocination" or "reason" to describe the way the Logos "thinks".Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00147139664156379333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-64616029329941048412011-12-30T22:46:00.854-08:002011-12-30T22:46:00.854-08:00St. John the Baptist leapt in the womb with joy at...St. John the Baptist leapt in the womb with joy at the presence of Christ. This tells me he too enjoyed an early formation of reason. Perhaps because of his being made holy in the womb.Irenaeus of New Yorkhttp://www.azoic.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-16227890649603048202011-12-28T13:14:12.333-08:002011-12-28T13:14:12.333-08:00@tz,
I'm sorry but your comment is almost cert...@tz,<br />I'm sorry but your comment is almost certainly material heresy ... there are two points in particular which cannot be anything other than heresy:<br /><br />"He [Christ our Savior] emptied himself of his divinity."<br />This is a silly thing to say ... it is not what Paul means in Philippians ... if he left or emptied our his divinity, He and all creation would cease to exist ... to empty himself of divinity (not simply divine glory and manifest power, but "divinity" per se) would mean to lose his divine nature, to cease to be God ... you just can't say that.<br /><br />"Fully Man and not more than Man." <br />Again, heresy. He was more than man ... he is also the True God.<br /><br />In any case, being rational does not make someone more than man ... just as one person gains reason at the age of 7 and another at the age of 5, but the 5year old is not more human than the 7year old ... so too, Christ had reason from his conception, and this does not make him non-human.<br /><br />Likewise, I know Italian, but some friends do not ... so why is it impossible for Christ to know all languages?<br /><br />Hope this makes sense ... you are in very dangerous waters. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26435505169154676182011-12-28T10:18:20.445-08:002011-12-28T10:18:20.445-08:00I think what bothers me is the frequent use of &qu...I think what bothers me is the frequent use of "But could have". He emptied himself of his divinity. The discussion makes it sound like the transcendent God, second person of the trinity wasn't the God-man, but more like an angel with the appearance of a body instead of True God and True Man. Even in the resurrection. That he didn't have to empty himself at all. That he didn't need his humanity since he had his divinity. It is easy to go off the path in this other direction.<br /><br />It does explain his birth as light through glass very well.<br /><br />Yet I think in a very real sense this is even more important for practical reasons. We look and judge people on appearances. Prejudice. You would be looking at the creator of the universe and see a man. And just enough beyond that to prove he was God during his ministry. During the passion he could have done more than call on the Father to send legions of angels. But he didn't. He was also the perfect Man, but fully Man and not more than Man. If he was something more, there would be a gap in the redemption.<br /><br />The saints appear to be the smallest, most humble of persons, yet they shine brightly with the light of Christ - but not with a visible light. Creation is far larger and brighter than it appears.tznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13714904893357197552011-12-28T08:37:20.588-08:002011-12-28T08:37:20.588-08:00@Cunjo,
St. Thomas is so brilliant ... he asked th...@Cunjo,<br />St. Thomas is so brilliant ... he asked the exact question and gives an answer:<br />from ST III, q.34, a.3, ad 3 -- "Nothing prevents the same thing belonging to someone from several causes. And thus it is that Christ was able by subsequent actions and sufferings to merit the glory of immortality, which He also merited in the first instant of His conception: not, indeed, so that it became thereby more due to Him than before, but so that it was due to Him from more causes than before."<br /><br />The essential point is that the same thing can be merited by more than one cause -- thus, he merited our salvation by his Incarnation (he came to earth that we might attain to heaven), and by his death (he died that we might live).<br /><br />Though, to be clear, he did not merit by the resurrection (as I'm sure you know) ... still, the resurrection is a cause of our salvation -- by rising he restored us to life.<br /><br />Hence, our salvation (and his glory) is merited many times over.<br />And it was fitting that it be so ... that he go far above and beyond what was strictly necessary, so as to show his love for us.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3395108170024274692011-12-28T02:24:24.279-08:002011-12-28T02:24:24.279-08:00"St. Thomas credits St. Augustine as teaching..."St. Thomas credits St. Augustine as teaching that Christ did not increase in merit through his life (“Increase of merit was absolutely impossible to the soul of Christ” – Paterius, Expos. Vet. et Nov. Test. super Ex. 40) and concludes that this requires that Christ merited all things in the very first moment of his conception. Upon coming into the world, our Savior merited our salvation..."<br /><br />If this is so, then why the life, passion and death on the cross?<br />I'm not saying this is untrue but rather i want to learn and to know things.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-62849081134257418232011-12-27T21:21:35.383-08:002011-12-27T21:21:35.383-08:00I guess the problem for me is understanding how Ch...I guess the problem for me is understanding how Christ could have prayed for us with a human intellect when He did not yet have the physical faculties upon which that intellect depends...I was going to say, 'for its existence.' Perhaps it would be better to say, 'for its expression.' If I render the description of His intellect in the latter manner, I suppose it is at least conceivable that Christ was praying and loving us through His humanity even though the physical organs of that humanity were not formed.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks Fr. for the meditation. I agree with Ellen and others that it was very powerful to consider the thought of Christ praying for us in the womb and no doubt I shall have to think on these things for many years before my understanding, I hope, begins to better grasp them in a faithful manner. How Christ's natures 'interact' [even that idea is probably wrong--sorry] so to speak has always been difficult for me to grasp.<br /><br />regards<br />yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71064367686334239182011-12-27T20:50:05.194-08:002011-12-27T20:50:05.194-08:00Father,
What a beautiful reflection of the most si...Father,<br />What a beautiful reflection of the most sincere truth! The way you synthesized the truths of the Church here in this article regarding Christ are phenomenal!<br />-Steven ReyesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-79111873235016003322011-12-26T05:24:37.553-08:002011-12-26T05:24:37.553-08:00Thank you so much for this website and for your ex...Thank you so much for this website and for your excellent instruction. Sometimes I have the horrible feeling that Catholics are going backwards in our understanding of our Faith. I am a very ordinary Catholic, without even a university education, but I was very blessed in my Catholic teachers (nuns). I now realize that their teaching was based on St. Thomas Aquinas, though I did not know that at the time. I have now got a copy of the Summa and I love reading it because it seems to me that St. Thomas has the answer to virtually all our questions. Also, a few years ago I read that Fr. Faber said that at the first instant of Christ's Conception He began to render to the Father the most perfect worship and adoration humanly possible. I think that is absolutely wonderful to contemplate. Jesus' first act was an act of perfect justice. I hope I am making sense, maybe I should find the book (I think it was "Bethlehem") and quote from it properly! Anyway, thank you again for putting in this effort to catechize us.ellennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-79119289714610321632011-12-25T20:17:46.737-08:002011-12-25T20:17:46.737-08:00@Seminarian John,
Please see the relevant article ...@Seminarian John,<br />Please see the relevant article I wrote (and which is linked above in the first paragraph under "Magisterial texts" -- Jesus knew the day and the hour)<br /><br />Jesus most certainly did know the day and the hour of the Judgment, even in his humanity ... to deny this is the heresy of the agnoetes (St. Gregory the Great condemned them) ...<br />Perhaps one quote from Pope Vigilius will suffice: "If anyone says that the one Jesus Christ who is both true Son of God and true Son of man did not know the future or the day of the Last Judgment and that he could know only as much as the divinity, dwelling in him as in another, revealed to him, anathema sit."<br /><br />If your question is, "Why didn't Jesus tell us the hour?" or "Why did he say he didn't know it?" ... you will see the answers of the Church Fathers in the two articles linked above.<br /><br />Anyone who says that Jesus didn't know is going to end up a Nestorian heretic (even if they don't realize it yet).<br /><br />Also, I know that this is a bit surprising when we first learn it ... but I'm sure that (with humility) you will see the wisdom of the Almighty!<br /><br />Peace and merry Christmas! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26221617906290191632011-12-25T19:01:10.280-08:002011-12-25T19:01:10.280-08:00If we say that Jesus knew everything at all times,...If we say that Jesus knew everything at all times, doesn't that create a problem with his statement that he does not know the day or the hour of his coming? <br /><br />Seminarian JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-16451243359703449012011-12-25T07:02:57.780-08:002011-12-25T07:02:57.780-08:00@Fellow Believer,
Christmas blessings to you! +
T...@Fellow Believer,<br />Christmas blessings to you! +<br /><br />The best line in your comment (in my opinion), the one that so many people often forget, is:<br />"At this point, Jesus isn't being created, but is just being born human."<br />YES! This is exactly what we have to remember when we think of the Christ Child! :-)Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-1525980937194023822011-12-24T23:38:22.586-08:002011-12-24T23:38:22.586-08:00This lesson is awesome to read, but it's also ...This lesson is awesome to read, but it's also not hard to swallow either (my opinion, but I don't have kids yet). In John, Jesus is introduced in the context of being the Word, and being with God when God created everything. From this perspective God's only begotten son was His own words. His first creation, so powerful that it itself is able to create everything else as an extension of God. So it’s not hard to conclude that Jesus was rational while even in the womb. At this point, Jesus isn’t being created, but is just being born human.<br /><br />It would be so fascinating to be close to Jesus while he is young and growing up. To be a parent or close relative who know Jesus from his birth. But not many had that chance. Not long after Jesus was born he and his family fled to Egypt, only later to return to a different town. And though the town knew Jesus, when Jesus went to preach to them, they disbelieved because they said, they knew him when he was younger, and knew his parents. Couldn't possibly be a prophet. Still, even with those hindrances, wouldn’t it be awesome to know Jesus as he is young?Fellow Believernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-90018798419841529372011-12-24T20:04:38.018-08:002011-12-24T20:04:38.018-08:00I was joking. As a parent, I would not have thoug...I was joking. As a parent, I would not have thought my 12 year old, was acting maturely when he decided to stay behind the caravan leaving Jerusalem.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01504517769804159508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-34646660678559689882011-12-24T12:56:04.229-08:002011-12-24T12:56:04.229-08:00@Veronica,
Remember, Jesus does not love us becaus...@Veronica,<br />Remember, Jesus does not love us because we are lovable ... rather, in a most wondrous way, his love makes us to be lovable.<br /><br />The love of God is what makes us to become good ... and this thought is very consoling! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69285989417707089282011-12-24T12:54:27.133-08:002011-12-24T12:54:27.133-08:00@Dan,
Are you saying that you think Jesus did not...@Dan, <br />Are you saying that you think Jesus did not reach the age of reason until after the age of 12?! <br /><br />Such a claim would be not simply blasphemous, but stupid! Why even ordinary children are rational by the age of 7 (generally) and sometimes earlier!<br />The story of finding the Christ Child in the Temple proves that he was far wiser than any ordinary child -- since the people marveled at the insight which he had!<br /><br />Explain yourself.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3115352101556300222011-12-24T12:27:06.795-08:002011-12-24T12:27:06.795-08:00Of all the teachings of the Church, this, believe ...Of all the teachings of the Church, this, believe it or not, is the hardest for me to accept:<br /><br />"There was never a moment in our Savior’s life when he did not know and love each and every one of us."<br /><br />It is a hard thing for my finite mind to fathom...especially when we are not very lovable much of the time.Veronicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-44561464504170325862011-12-24T12:16:46.711-08:002011-12-24T12:16:46.711-08:00It must have been sometime after his parents found...It must have been sometime after his parents found Him in the temple.<br /><br />So I would say after 12.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01504517769804159508noreply@blogger.com