tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post1537046414484485758..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Why we abstain from meat, but not from fish or wineFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14589331685533610562013-02-09T07:16:10.438-08:002013-02-09T07:16:10.438-08:00I hope comments are still open on this post! I am ...I hope comments are still open on this post! I am late to the conversation, just finding this while researching the reasons behind our Lenten menu.<br /><br />For me, at my current stage in life (homeschooling mom of five), I can't say that lustful temptations are something with which I struggle. As for anger, I have room for improvement. Lack of sleep, cloudy days, wacky hormones, and too much sugar seem to be more likely culprits than the consumption of zinc-rich foods such as flesh meat. I feel the most stable when I eat a diet high in meat protein and low in sugar.<br /><br />Could it be that the practice of abstaining from meat is geared more for men than women?<br /><br />I am curious, but willing to give this a try by planning meat dishes only once a week this Lent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87655722269996513392011-06-19T09:49:32.217-07:002011-06-19T09:49:32.217-07:00In answer to Nick (above):
"Since the wine b...In answer to Nick (above):<br /><br />"Since the wine becomes the Precious Blood in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, what should one use when fasting from wine? I know Sundays are breakfasts, but I mean more about daily Mass for our Eastern Catholic brethern."<br /><br />In Great Lent and other fast-days we also practice a Eucharistic fast, so no Divine Liturgy is celebrated then (as Roman Catholics do on Good/Great Friday). So we don't have "daily Mass" on days when we fast from wine. We do intensify our prayers, though, during Great Lent, and although daily Liturgy is typically not celebrated on weekdays (we have a tradition of married priests, and a rule prohibiting a priest from engaging in conjugal relations the night before Liturgy - you can probably guess how our reasoning works on this one!), we do say a "Liturgy of the Presanctified" in which commmunion consecrated the previous Sunday is administered. We do administer communion as normal then, including the Precious Blood. Once it's consecrated it's not wine any more.Seraphimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42224639420210359252011-04-07T14:26:58.286-07:002011-04-07T14:26:58.286-07:00Joshua,
You are quite correct...in fact, in earlie...Joshua,<br />You are quite correct...in fact, in earlier times (both east and west), shellfish, eggs, and dairy products were all prohibited.<br />I seem to recall hearing that, at least for some monks, there was even a custom of abstaining from certain lentils and beans (which also have a lot of zinc, as it turns out).<br /><br />Thanks for the info! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38727019081458757982011-04-07T12:30:48.888-07:002011-04-07T12:30:48.888-07:00About oysters, at least formely in the East, on ma...About oysters, at least formely in the East, on many days shellfish was prohibited even when fish was not.<br /><br />JoshuaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55797608018243806502011-04-04T13:08:16.382-07:002011-04-04T13:08:16.382-07:00@Matt,
I suppose we might consider not taking zinc...@Matt,<br />I suppose we might consider not taking zinc supplements during Lent ... but, on the other hand, zinc is really helpful for not getting colds... <br />[myself, I do take zinc in the cold months]<br /><br />I would say that simply not eating meat on Friday's already does a little something...whether or not we take zinc supplements, we will still probably be getting less zinc than usual (since we won't have as much of it in our meals).<br /><br />Mostly, I was hoping to show in the article that there is a reason to the prohibition of meat on Fridays. What we do from there is a matter of personal prudence.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10139941838014037732011-04-03T22:19:38.310-07:002011-04-03T22:19:38.310-07:00So, do people who unknowingly continue to take the...So, do people who unknowingly continue to take their multivitamins obviate the usefulness of their Lenten fast?Matt Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18243180819805009566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-76420002925453273042011-04-02T14:27:36.780-07:002011-04-02T14:27:36.780-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Fernandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05007502003217435581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3645479729139229542011-03-23T12:21:28.836-07:002011-03-23T12:21:28.836-07:00MM, Thank you for the note...this is why I said in...MM, Thank you for the note...this is why I said in the article that oysters are among the foods highest in zinc.<br /><br />Nevertheless, in general, meat has more zinc than fish. Moreover, meat, milk-foods, and eggs are the most common high-zinc foods in the normal western diet.<br />Pax.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10113953236502131302011-03-23T10:20:35.207-07:002011-03-23T10:20:35.207-07:00For what its worth, mollusks (particularly oysters...For what its worth, mollusks (particularly oysters) contain substantially more zinc than any other food.<br /><br />MMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8576776541862337752011-03-20T12:39:50.389-07:002011-03-20T12:39:50.389-07:00Macrelo, Your point about the pre-lapsarian state ...Macrelo, Your point about the pre-lapsarian state (indeed, the state before the flood) is well taken. It is true, there is some sense in which refraining from meat calls us back to a lost innocence.<br /><br />You mention that "all killing, all death is in principle a bad thing." Just to qualify that statement (which I agree with) -- we would say that all killing/death is a physical evil, though not necessarily a moral evil. <br />Hence, in heaven, none will need to eat and none will die.<br /><br />The difference between warm-blooded and cold-blooded is also interesting -- I wonder if all warm-blooded have more zinc? This would link the medieval science with modern science.<br /><br />In any case, there much to think on here! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-9038232335886709642011-03-20T10:07:09.806-07:002011-03-20T10:07:09.806-07:00The ancient physiological reason for not eating me...The ancient physiological reason for not eating meat is sound and confirmed not only by modern science but also by revered medicinal systems such as Ayurveda and TCM.<br /><br />But there is another reason for not eating meat, and that is not shedding blood. The Bible tells us that man originally did not eat meat (although he occasionally sacrificed an animal). The Divine permission to eat meat came only after the Flood. It must be understood as a special grant given by God in view of the greater fragility of later humans. The reason for not shedding blood is intuitive. All killing, all death is in principle a bad thing. Not shedding blood is, in a way, a going back to the primordial non-violence of Eden.<br /><br />The reason for the distinction between the meat of land animals and fish is that the latter are cold-blooded. The same ancient science that recognized the link between meat and lust also postulated that cold-blooded animals do not feel pain in the same way as warm-blooded animals do. As such, their killing is less of a violence and less conducive to violence than the killing of warm-blooded animals.<br /><br />It is only fitting that in celebrating the death of the Redeemer, who had to shed his blood for our sins and the sins of all humans, we also abstain from shedding the blood of other beings. Shedding blood was the prototypical sin after the Fall and, as such, stands as the epitome of sin in general. By not shedding blood, we make manifest our intention to love our fellow beings, including animals.<br /><br />Any thoughts on this? Best,<br /><br />Marcelo - from BrazilMarcelo C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14232587159553559752011-03-19T08:13:16.300-07:002011-03-19T08:13:16.300-07:00@Nick,
The problem is that (as you know) St. Augu...@Nick, <br />The problem is that (as you know) St. Augustine is an incredibly prolific writer... hence, saying "it's in Saint Augustine's work" really doesn't help anybody.<br /><br />Moreover, it is one thing to say that we fast because Friday is the day of the Passion; it is another to say we fast from flesh meat because Christ's Flesh was offered in the Passion.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-88731962670835228852011-03-18T23:00:44.102-07:002011-03-18T23:00:44.102-07:00"I would be very interested to find a source ..."I would be very interested to find a source for the idea that the Friday fast from flesh-meat is related to the fact that our Lord offered his Flesh on Friday."<br /><br />It's in Saint Augustine's work, who cites the connection between fasting and the Passion as tradition; though whether he meant Sacred Tradition or popular piety is beyond me.Nicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42459100884461718512011-03-18T13:57:26.598-07:002011-03-18T13:57:26.598-07:00Hi Sapiens, as I read your last post I am eating c...Hi Sapiens, as I read your last post I am eating carefully chosen salmon sushi...now guiltily! Thanks!!!<br /><br />But seriously, I think the fish has such special significance to Christians, surely there is in a way a reason TO eat it during Lent, specially if one ponders the many allusions to it while eating it. I can't explain it well. It's sentimental I guess. I feel close to our Lord somehow. Silly, I know.<br /><br />To be said on Fridays: the Fishy Mysteries! (More than 5 could be created!)Bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-65803188425792281792011-03-18T11:16:48.527-07:002011-03-18T11:16:48.527-07:00sapiens said:
The thought has occurred to me ofte...sapiens said:<br /><br />The thought has occurred to me often that ON THE DAY WHEN WE "PUT TO DEATH THE LORD/AUTHOR (ARCHEGON) OF LIFE" (PETER'S WORDS AT ACTS 3: 14), WE DO WELL TO GIVE UP OUR MASTERY OF LIFE.<br />Indeed, I have wondered if we would not then do well to give up the eating of fish as well on Fridays. I realize that this would be disastrous for parish fish fries UNLESS some VERY tasty substitute could be found.<br />My thought continues that on Good Friday we might give up the wearing of leather as well. We see how the priest goes to the sanctuary unshod on that day. On the Day of Atonement, Jews refrain from wearing leather belts and footwear; you will see them dressed to the nines on their way to the synagogue/temple but wearing tennis shoes or running shoes or sandles made of materials other than leather.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56374757926498435992011-03-18T10:33:49.384-07:002011-03-18T10:33:49.384-07:00sapiens said:
Lenten hot cross buns are made with...sapiens said:<br /><br />Lenten hot cross buns are made without eggs or butter.<br />There is a wonderful story about the German Advent "log" called Stollen.<br />In the Middle Ages a German nobleman was prepared to make a large donation for the building of a great church. He had a condition, however. He asked that the use of butter be allowed for breadmaking in the penitential season. He argued that a ban on using butter was little penance for those in the south because they could then use rich olive oil. Those in the north had only the oil of the rapeseed at hand (canola oil, which means Canadian oil). Rome granted the permission he sought, and so we have the rich Advent break called Stollen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29628478744786457642011-03-18T07:44:19.930-07:002011-03-18T07:44:19.930-07:00@Brad,
The issue with that interpretation is that...@Brad,<br /><br />The issue with that interpretation is that for centuries the faithful did not receive Holy Communion on Good Friday, only the priest did. In fact I believe that particular change was as recent as 1962. Before then, the faithful did not receive Holy Communion at the Mass of the Presanctified. Also the sacrifice is not offered on Good Friday, so the analogy between receiving Holy Communion on Good Friday and the eating of the Passover lamb is not a strong one -- less strong, I think, than receiving Holy Communion at any other celebration of Mass.<br /><br />Dr. Hahn's speculations about the Fourth Cup are just that -- speculations. We don't know what the structure of the Passover seder was like in the time of Christ. Furthermore our current Pope holds that the Last Supper was not even the Passover seder but rather a todah meal.dcshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18424510747759223459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91670726803097962011-03-17T13:00:16.258-07:002011-03-17T13:00:16.258-07:00Dear Reginaldus:
I too would like to find sources...Dear Reginaldus:<br /><br />I too would like to find sources (time + google!). <br /><br />Until then I rely on the sensus fidelium, which surely notices the Christ as new passover lamb parallel, wherein under Moses we were not allowed to eat any other flesh but the prescribed menu for that passover day: since the ultimate lamb was consumed on the historical Good Friday, and still is, in every host, that Lamb was our fleshly entree for Good Friday. No substitutions on this prix fixe menu! Thus, all subsequent weekly "little" good fridays echo the historical Good Friday and the Holy Spirit has prompted us to abstain, perhaps without many human mediums, shall we say. In essence, every calendar Friday is a little OT passover as fulfilled by the NT passover of Good Friday. <br /><br />I know you know this, so please realize I'm just clarifying my own thoughts here with no inner monologue -- how gauche! <br /><br />Scott Hahn has an excellent CD out called The Fourth Cup.Bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-28599583780153673392011-03-17T12:26:28.262-07:002011-03-17T12:26:28.262-07:00Thank you for this thoughtful and informative post...Thank you for this thoughtful and informative post, particularly the quotes from St. Thomas. As a Traditional Catholic, we still observe a full Lenten fast as opposed to the "modern" version. (Yes, I know the law, but as a matter of discipline we do so anyway) It has changed the way we look at many things and it has helped us to have better control over our passions, so to speak. It has reminded us that sacrifice may lead to temporary suffering but in the long run we can conquer our sins and inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. <br />TradCathinNEPAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3243481020917419412011-03-17T11:40:44.594-07:002011-03-17T11:40:44.594-07:00I would be very interested to find a source for th...I would be very interested to find a source for the idea that the Friday fast from flesh-meat is related to the fact that our Lord offered his Flesh on Friday.<br /><br />There is no reference to this in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It's not in the Summa. Nor is it in the Rule of St. Benedict. [just to pick important works from three ages of the Church]<br /><br />I find it to be a very interesting reflection and I am inclined to agree with it -- as a spiritual interpretation, if not a literal/historical one.<br />But I would like to know of a solid source of Catholic doctrine or spirituality that speaks this way...<br /><br />It is important for our piety to be rooted in the theology and spirituality of the saints (scientia sanctorum).Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-27698278531609590352011-03-17T10:53:12.344-07:002011-03-17T10:53:12.344-07:00Reginaldus,
Thank you for your reply. This is all...Reginaldus,<br /><br />Thank you for your reply. This is all very interesting as is all of Church history. <br /><br />It is great that we can get clarification around many of the Church's teachings. I have similar questions around the primacy of Rome...but that is another topic. <br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36420350021583154822011-03-17T10:07:00.351-07:002011-03-17T10:07:00.351-07:00I comprehend and agree with the article but also a...I comprehend and agree with the article but also agree with the more mystical understanding of the fast's significance as put forth by Andrew. I venture to say that the latter has more virtue, capital V. The reason I don't eat meat on all Fridays throughout the year is because I try to be mindful of what happened to (and through!) flesh on that day. I am a rank sinner and it is only through His grace that I even ponder Him.Bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36988337073065621112011-03-17T08:26:20.066-07:002011-03-17T08:26:20.066-07:00Nick,
Of course the Precious Blood would not break...Nick,<br />Of course the Precious Blood would not break the fast ... however, it may be the case that in those Rites where the chalice is purified with wine and water (after Communion), they would use only water -- [I don't really know, just speculating].<br /><br />In the Extraordinary Form, where wine is used to purify the chalice, the wine is omitted if the priest has to celebrate a second Mass immediately after the first (as may happen on All Soul's day)...<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-21153866620908200182011-03-17T08:24:19.180-07:002011-03-17T08:24:19.180-07:00crazylikeknoxes,
If I understand your comment corr...crazylikeknoxes,<br />If I understand your comment correctly ....<br />It was GIVING UP wine that led to the conception of children.<br />This would mean that wine REDUCES libido (which is my claim). So that, less wine, means less libido REDUCTION, which means more libido, which can lead to more babies.<br /><br />Thus, it makes perfect sense why the Church would not ask us to give up wine during Lent -- since, more wine means less libido.<br />[though I think it is perfectly fine, of course, to give up alcohol for Lent]<br /><br /><br />As far as whether wine "wears off" more quickly than steak -- my point was that a steak dinner sits in your stomach and stays in your system longer than a few glasses of wine.<br /><br /><br />Thank you for sharing this wonderful story from your family life! How good the Lord is! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61539738663220443732011-03-17T08:18:52.344-07:002011-03-17T08:18:52.344-07:00Matt (1:44pm),
Sorry about the sarcasm earlier -- ...Matt (1:44pm),<br />Sorry about the sarcasm earlier -- I meant it to be a bit more light hearted. In any case, thanks for continuing the discussion.<br /><br />Regarding the real difference between fasting and abstaining -- you may like an article I wrote on that (posted last Monday). The essential difference is that fasting is an act, but abstinence is a virtue.<br />Though it is true that in Canon Law the Church generally uses abstinence to refer to not eating certain food and fasting to refer to eating less of all foods.<br /><br />In any case... My point is that Christ was speaking about the Old Law and the proscription of unclean foods -- the Church does not intend to claim that meat is unclean, only that it tends toward concupiscence (and this is also a scientific fact).<br /><br /><br />Finally, I think you are quite right that we are able to ask for clarifications on the Church's teachings ... That is part of what I was trying to do in the article itself ...<br />Why does the Church ask us to give up meat? Does it make sense according to modern science?<br />And the answer turns out to be very interesting (I think).<br /><br />Peace and blessings ... and, again, please do feel free to comment and discuss. I'll try to be more gentle and less sarcastic! :)Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.com