tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post2025853628133477397..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Guest letter challenging Dr. Peters on canon 915, Communion, and "manifest" sinFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55781084422714813112012-03-27T21:47:32.110-07:002012-03-27T21:47:32.110-07:00Here's a new canonical defense posted today on...Here's a new canonical defense posted today on pewsitter...<br /><br />"As a priest and canon lawyer, I'd like in canonical terms, to revisit the controversial events surrounding the denial of Holy Communion to Barbara Johnson by Father Marcel Guarnizo. First of all, while I agree with many of the points by the very well-respected canonist Dr. Ed Peters, I believe that even with the rather limited information currently available, Father Guarnizo very possibly and correctly satisfied the conditions of canon 915 in denying Holy Communion to Barbara Johnson. Secondly, I would like to comment on Father Guarnizo's unjust "administrative leave" in light of the Code of Canon Law."<br /><br />Read the rest here at http://pewsitter.com/view_news_id_86857.phpCherylnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52866999115784441682012-03-21T13:07:08.074-07:002012-03-21T13:07:08.074-07:00Father,
I don't think Fr. Marcel went "t...Father,<br /><br />I don't think Fr. Marcel went "to great lengths" to point out he is not incardinated in the Archdiocese of Washington - he simply mentioned it with his understanding that he cannot be canonically suspended by Cardinal Wuerl. I do not know if that is accurate or not, but nothing in his statement suggests he desires to be disobedient or a "free-agent" in this situation. In fact, he makes clear that he desires to be obedient. <br /><br />And as someone who personally knows Fr. Marcel, I am confident that he wants nothing other than to be an obedient son of the Church.francisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72266150720606021672012-03-21T12:51:49.866-07:002012-03-21T12:51:49.866-07:00@Ienaeus of NY,
My understanding is that Father ha...@Ienaeus of NY,<br />My understanding is that Father has not received any punishment and that no "disciplinary action" has been taken against him.<br /><br />As far I as I have heard, he has only been placed on "administrative leave" - which is not a canonical penalty.<br />And this leave was brought on not by the incident itself, but by other accusations of "intimidation" (some of which are circumstantial to the incident).<br /><br />One thing I know for sure ... when Fr. Guarnizo goes to great lengths to point out that Cardinal Wuerl is not his bishop (and tries to claim that the Cardinal therefore does not have canonical authority to discipline him through a possible future suspension), it is pretty hard for me to criticize the Cardinal for not acting "fatherly". <br /><br />Just my own thoughts ... irrespective of the canonical question of 915.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-54927422395460807412012-03-21T12:14:44.756-07:002012-03-21T12:14:44.756-07:00I think the one thing that disturbs me is that it ...I think the one thing that disturbs me is that it obviously takes a canonist to understand the intricacies of canon law. And even finding consensus on any given subject among canon lawyers is not assured. But the priest tread over this invisible line which is subject to interpretation. The priest does not get a consultation or warning from his bishop, he gets the hammer. Given the nature of this particular incident, I don't see why this required disciplinary action, not to mention a public flogging of him with their press release. "Punish one teach one hundred" is not a Father and Son relationship.Irenaeus of New Yorkhttp://www.azoic.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-33035347251846280662012-03-20T22:49:50.101-07:002012-03-20T22:49:50.101-07:00Hi Fr,
I am no canonist, I am only trying to reas...Hi Fr,<br /><br />I am no canonist, I am only trying to reason as best I know. I appreciate any correction.<br /><br />It is my understanding that to be a heretic a person must obstinately hold to a false teaching. My assertion is simply that not every person that belongs to a heretical sect is necessarily a heretic by that standard. Quite a few are not. Babies for instance. Those not well-catechized in their faith would be another example. Those that through no fault of their own believe something in error would be another example. In this last category we would even have to include Catholics who in the past believed something different than what the Church taught before the Church taught that thing clearly. E.g. St Thomas and other saints in regard to the Immaculate Conception.<br />Certainly they could not have been saints and heretics at the same time. Yet they held to a belief that was objectively false, but not willfully in contradiction to the teaching of the Church.<br /><br />Thus, subjective mental states, not just status, is relevant for determining whether an individual is a heretic.<br /><br />I don't think I am making this up. I recall once reading at the Catholic Answers website that St Augustine didn't regard those Christians who were children of schismatics to be schismatics themselves.<br /><br />Well?yannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-62296290255827227902012-03-18T12:28:27.926-07:002012-03-18T12:28:27.926-07:00Reminder:
Purely anonymous comments (lacking even ...Reminder:<br />Purely anonymous comments (lacking even a pseudonym) will not be posted.<br />This is why the anonymous comment of 10:21am has been deleted.<br /><br />As I request in the comment policy and also in the comment pop-up box, use a pseudonym at least at the end of the comment ... like so ...<br /><br />- Fr. RyanFather Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22938986143620387632012-03-17T10:21:23.195-07:002012-03-17T10:21:23.195-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72335100848911273222012-03-17T04:49:40.738-07:002012-03-17T04:49:40.738-07:00"You cannot be my disciples if you do not abi..."You cannot be my disciples if you do not abide in my Word." - Christ<br /><br />Since it is true that communion is not a matter of degree, ( Catholic Canon 750) a heretic must not receive communion, for to deny The Word of God, is to be against Christ.<br /><br />The bishop must be disciplined and the priest restored to ministry for the sake of Christ, His Church, and all who will come to believe in The Word of God as He Has revealed Himself to His Church in the trinitarian relationship of Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and The Teaching of The Magisterium.N.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14319122125249787860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29270417682516070842012-03-15T13:37:18.538-07:002012-03-15T13:37:18.538-07:00How is the relationship of a homosexual couple dif...<i>How is the relationship of a homosexual couple different from a co-habitating heterosexual couple who are not married</i>.<br /><br />The 1st relationship is an unnatural abomination that can never be made licit and moral or normal no matter what the men or women in that relationship do.<br /><br />They must cease their lust and repudiate and Confess it or they will remain on the path to perdition.<br /><br />A normal couple that is shacking-up can quit the fornicating and receive the Sacraments of Confession and Marriage and then everything is jake.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-35530646890778367632012-03-15T08:46:12.384-07:002012-03-15T08:46:12.384-07:00Please all...the circumstances are well explained ...Please all...the circumstances are well explained on rorate-caeli.blogspot.comMarko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-41048597491135442812012-03-14T09:51:24.537-07:002012-03-14T09:51:24.537-07:00@Dr. Peters, regarding pseudonymous blogging,
An ...@Dr. Peters, regarding pseudonymous blogging,<br /><br />An explanation of why we allow pseudonymous and anonymous posts can be found at the link below ... if you are truly interested.<br />http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/04/in-defense-of-pseudonymous-blogging.html<br /><br />Thank you for clarifying your view further regarding "obstinate".<br /> <br />As I say in the introductory comments, I tend to agree with your articles on this subject ... though I believe that this anonymous letter makes a good case regarding what counts as "manifest sin".<br /><br />Peace to you always! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66214704897898665582012-03-14T06:58:33.943-07:002012-03-14T06:58:33.943-07:00Dear Father,
That famous quote of Blessed JPII: &...Dear Father,<br /><br />That famous quote of Blessed JPII: "It seems to me that an age of severity is followed by an age of laxity," sums up in my mind, much of the confusion around the correct application of the church law regarding the distribution of Holy Communion. <br /><br />I'm old enough to remember when the pastor would come into our Catholic grade school to "make an example of" a misbehaving student. The pastor would rage at the child, and the child couldn't sit down until he or she wept. It was frightening and disgusting even for 3rd graders who had to witness such violence.<br /><br /> Most of my 60 classmates (in the same classroom) never continued in the faith after graduation because of the pastor's frightening meanness. And of course we could not trust the nuns who just stood by and let him do this. <br /><br />To make an analogy, the "crisis" in the Irish church, which suffered from the severity of centuries of English occupation in which the English would "make an example of" Irishmen who disobeyed the rules, often killing them. Well, the Irish having been oppressed by such severe punishment for hundreds of years, sometimes used this tactic of "making an example of" someone after liberation from the English, and it came to this country too.<br /><br />Now, over the past 4 decades, in righteous disgust of the uncharitable severity practiced widely by priests, many have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and will not even consider applying necessary disciplinary practices. Of course, as you emphasize, the clergy and the people need to value good discipline which is exercised in charity because Our Lord calls us to loving obedience to ALL of His Commandments. Ireland needs to have a discussion of the effects of centuries of English tyrannical domination, and until she does, the Irish won't get to the root of the problem. Same with the Church in America, which is largely Irish.<br /><br /> This is the issue which gives the now-aged "feminist nuns" the dynamism for their ongoing fury: they can't forgive themselves for standing by while the pastor verbally abused those little children. They need to ask for forgiveness, and forgive themselves, and get back to the normal practice of the Catholic religious life.<br /><br /> There is a danger now for any priest who correctly and charitably applies the disciplinary rules: that his actions will be twisted even by bystanders into an act of "making an example of" an unsuspecting person. It is a complicated issue, since there are now many people who appear to be plotting to bait good and holy priests. <br /><br />So I hope and pray that this conversation about the age of severity and the age of laxity is undertaken by the Bishops and the people, in order to resolve this underlying problem. God bless you for having the courage to address this question.Michelangelonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45137756121729704672012-03-14T06:38:26.586-07:002012-03-14T06:38:26.586-07:00@A Sinner
A person who happily declares to be a co...@A Sinner<br />A person who happily declares to be a cohabiting lesbian is a person who is content with her sinful condition and even to proclaim before a priest that her condition isn't sinful enough to refuse her the Sacrament of Communion! That would make the priest guilty of sacrilege as he knows the sinful lifestyle of person but yet gives what is holy to the pigs. One thing is when a pig is masked as a credible sheep of your flock - in that case, you can't simply know and you are justified; but if the person comes to you in her true piggy dress, how can you give her what is holy? The Eucharist is the literal Body of Christ and giving it to self-proclaimed and happy public sinners as if they hadn't sinned is a sacrilege!Alessandronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61861225586264521802012-03-14T05:30:07.744-07:002012-03-14T05:30:07.744-07:00Hi. You'll understand that I can't reply t...Hi. You'll understand that I can't reply to every post about this topic, and anonymous posts get less attention from me than others. (Why on earth would an obviously intelligent writer going after a named individual post anonymously on this? Anyway.) I will say that my view has NEVER been that prior warning is required in all cases for c. 915. I don't appreciate being linked with that view.Ed Petershttp://www.canonlaw.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-17857580478934357362012-03-14T03:28:14.296-07:002012-03-14T03:28:14.296-07:00How is the relationship of a homosexual couple dif...How is the relationship of a homosexual couple different from a co-habitating heterosexual couple who are not married? Or from a person who is taking birth control pills? I know many of these are presenting themselves for communion and receiving regularly. Do we know that Barbara Johnson is not living a celibate lifestyle? If we are going to deny Holy Communion to a lesbian, should we not also do so to those who persist in other matters of grave sin? He who is without sin may cast the first stone.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00993772919911115296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15778490255938122772012-03-13T21:35:53.018-07:002012-03-13T21:35:53.018-07:00Hi Fr.,
Scriptor quotes as follows:
“a text of S...Hi Fr.,<br /><br />Scriptor quotes as follows:<br /><br />“a text of Saint Timothy of Alexandria, which underlines the responsibility of the minister of Holy Communion to refuse the Blessed Sacrament to a public sinner. The question is posed: Whether it is permitted to give Holy Communion to a heretic who presents himself to receive amidst a large crowd? Saint Timothy of Alexandria responds that it is not permitted to give Holy Communion to the heretic, even if he is not recognized in the huge crowd.” [Emphasis mine]<br /><br />Here we have someone whose sin is of a public nature."<br /><br />I say, someone belonging to a heretical sect, is not necessarily a heretic, in which case, there is a perception that he has a sin of a public nature, but not necessarily the reality. He may have been born into that sect, and not willfully following teachings contrary to those revealed by the Roman Catholic Church. The same type of situation would exist in the case of a homosexual living in sin, who leaves his house, goes to church and makes a sincere confession, yet returns to his house after mass, and falls back into sin: he may be perceived to be a public sinner, but at the time of taking communion, he was not. As a pastor no doubt you are familiar with this type of weak soul.<br /><br />Would a priest that gave absolution to the homosexual in my example be wrong to give him communion, because the homosexual seemed to be a public sinner? Would he be wrong to NOT give him communion? Is the priest free to decide what is best under the circumstances?<br /><br />There still remains the danger of scandal in giving holy communion to a person who may be perceived to be a heretic or active homosexual [even if the priest knows otherwise]. In regard to the perceived heretic, there is also the fact that he has not been officially received into communion with the Catholic church. Are either of those reasons sufficient basis for denying communion? Is there a presumption in favor of receiving communion, or is the presumption against? I.e., are we assumed worthy to receive communion if we present ourselves, or is communion something that the church can rightfully hold back until its ministers are satisfied with the quota of evidence?yannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75383945339140668902012-03-13T21:04:05.444-07:002012-03-13T21:04:05.444-07:00I think that, in instances like this one, many of ...I think that, in instances like this one, many of us don't see the wood for the trees. Let's just use common sense (which, unfortunately, is quite uncommon these days.) Is Barbara Johnson a practicing lesbian? Yes, by her own admission. Is Barbara Johnson a Buddhist? Yes, by her own admission. Is active homosexuality a sin, and can a Buddhist receive the Eucharist? I'll leave the last two questions to be answered by the others, to practice the application of common sense...<br /><br />God Bless,<br /><br />MariuszAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-57370003449014663212012-03-13T15:03:57.050-07:002012-03-13T15:03:57.050-07:00"how exactly everyone knows he is a sinner wh..."how exactly everyone knows he is a sinner when his sin is private is beyond me"<br /><br />Good observation!<br />-ZevlagAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56312547723865138042012-03-13T14:39:49.226-07:002012-03-13T14:39:49.226-07:00@A Sinner,
And how exactly could there ever be exc...@A Sinner,<br />And how exactly could there ever be excommunication if, as you suggest, the Church got rid of the idea of "obstinate" sinners and "manifest" sin?<br /><br />Your idea of the Church winking at a private sinner (how exactly everyone knows he is a sinner when his sin is private is beyond me) and then deriding a public sinner ... well, it is hysterical ... but has no basis in reality.<br />Unless, of course, you are making a dangerously libelous accusation against Fr. Guarnizo ... in which case you are no longer welcome at this blog.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-86254938982982271922012-03-13T13:02:56.201-07:002012-03-13T13:02:56.201-07:00I need to clarify a point in my previews post: I d...I need to clarify a point in my previews post: I didn't mean to say that Italian priests are better then US priests. There are indeed well-known cases of abuses such as famous divorced individuals who have received the Eucharist though explicitly being a public second marriage, as in the case of former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.<br />I sincerely hope there might be some enhancements and further restrictions in Canon Law to avoid these situations in the future..Alessandronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-46936550340891283252012-03-13T11:00:04.160-07:002012-03-13T11:00:04.160-07:00"The Church does not have the authority to le..."The Church does not have the authority to leave this practice behind ... it is a matter of divine Law."<br /><br />I've never said there wasn't a place for excommunication.<br /><br />A public process whereby, after a sort of due process and chance to defend oneself, someone is specifically excluded from communion may be the tough medicine they need. This is especially true for publicly proclaimed heretics I would think, but it could extend to other sorts of immorality.<br /><br />However, that's different than allowing bishops and priests to pick out the "public sinners" from among the private sinners of their congregations and decide to single them out based on assumptions about their "lifestyle"...well, I think we should all remember the day my mama socked it to the Harper Valley PTA.<br /><br />It starts to look bad for the Church when everyone winks at Joe who goes and visits his mistress on weekends, but brings Jack to the rug because he lives with his, or when the priest who has a "secret" gay sex at an anonymous club on weekends is denying communion to a lesbian whose made a committed life with her partner.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56678362933324208292012-03-13T10:17:12.130-07:002012-03-13T10:17:12.130-07:00I don't know how it works there in the US, but...I don't know how it works there in the US, but in Italy the problem doesn't exist - Communion is equally refused to the publicly divorced and homosexuals. To tell the truth, there is another error which I blame our Italian Church of - i.e. the fact that most priests wrongly deny Communion even to the divorced who never remarried or cohabited, but rather try to stay firm in the practice of the Church.<br /><br />I personally am of the opinion of Fr. Gaurnizo. Holy Communion is the Body of Christ and must be preserved as much as possible from the sacrilege of people who publicly profess their immoral lifestyles - giving Communion to them would be like saying that homosexuality isn't sinful at all, while the public refusal of Communion to publicly proclaimed homosexuals might be a good occasion for Catechesis. But who knows, maybe the priest did something else wrong we are not aware of... God knows!Alessandronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40091539269436679012012-03-13T09:59:59.641-07:002012-03-13T09:59:59.641-07:00@A Sinner,
The practice of denying communion to ma...@A Sinner,<br />The practice of denying communion to manifest grave sinners goes back to St. Paul ... 1 Corinthians 5.<br /><br />The Church does not have the authority to leave this practice behind ... it is a matter of divine Law.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55055567624913377402012-03-13T09:47:25.814-07:002012-03-13T09:47:25.814-07:00@Alexander Weber, the bishop said he'd receive...@Alexander Weber, the bishop said he'd received complaints from office staff and others. You can read the letter that was read to the members of his parish here:<br />http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WNvJs_P4q8U/T10B0aWwj1I/AAAAAAAAFd0/_zHYGTwvc64/s1600/003-guarnizo.jpgGabbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13307116304179835358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72438555703824440352012-03-13T05:02:50.029-07:002012-03-13T05:02:50.029-07:00Thank you for this and thanks to "Scriptor&qu...Thank you for this and thanks to "Scriptor". It seems Canon 915 needs some clarification from the Church together with uniform application. I think the people who seem ready to "disobey" Canon law in this instance are very disturbed by the possibility that there may be many people out there who will set out to commit sacrilege and there will be nothing we can do to prevent it. In the past, didn't people who were manifest sinners have to publically recant? Wouldn't something like that be necessary in some situations?ellennoreply@blogger.com