tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post3244755637776785363..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: You're not speaking in tongues, you're just mumblingFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66480747759693184162013-07-28T11:29:46.239-07:002013-07-28T11:29:46.239-07:00I hear you Anon! Personally I grew up in a Penteco...I hear you Anon! Personally I grew up in a Pentecostal church and still currently attend. But as i get older (22) and actually got saved I read the Bible more. This topic along with Zionism has been my main focus. I believe if the gift of tongues are used it should be as Paul says orderly. If more than one does it the church is not biblically sound. Also the interpretation should be a praise psalm or prayer. As Paul says men to God. If my church has someone give a message but the interpretation is a prophecy (god to men) what's going on? Any thoughts?<br /><br />Joseph Alexander Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13211982918463943152011-12-01T14:08:30.816-08:002011-12-01T14:08:30.816-08:00I'm concerned about the rise of Corinthian abu...I'm concerned about the rise of Corinthian abuses growing among my friends, my own parish, and archdiocese. How do we discern what is true? What is the most charitable way of voicing concerns without alienating friends and family that accept or claim charisms? Or, how can a healthy dialogue to discern truth take place within a community if there is a real fear of abandonment, disunity, and rejection?<br /><br />“It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds.” (CCC 801) <br /><br />Do you think the Church be investigating claims of charisms? If someone claims to have the gift of prophecy or message for the entire Body, shouldn't we all be concerned? I want to know if what they are saying is true. How come there is so much concern about discerning the validity of Marian apparitions, but charismatic prophecies and messages get a free pass?<br /><br />“If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.” (1 Cor. 14 27-28)" It seems that St. Paul's advice is out-rightly ignored. Why aren't tongues recorded and interpreted by known interpreters? Shouldn't two interpreters have the same interpretation of the same recording? <br /><br />This excerpt below has shed some light to me concerning the abuses at Corinth, so has the Navarre Bible and Haydock commentaries:<br /> <br />'There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of "tongues" a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (14:23). The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8), which sometimes might be construed as little short of blasphemous (12:3). The Divine praises were recognized now and then, but the general effect was one of confusion and disedification for the very unbelievers for whom the normal gift was intended (14:22, 23, 26). The Corinthians, misled not by insincerity but by simplicity and ignorance (20), were actuated by an undisciplined religious spirit (pneuma), or rather by frenzied emotions and not by the understanding (nous) of the Spirit of God (15). What today purports to be the "gift of tongues" at certain Protestant revivals is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need there was in the primitive Church of the Apostle's counsel to do all things "decently, and according to order" (40).'<br /><br />-- Catholic Encyclopedia, 1917, "Gift of Tongues: Corinthian Abuses" --<br /><br />http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm<br /><br />I really do want to know the truth and live according to it, and am completely willing to be wrong, but I feel like I'm stuck between choosing truth and friendship. <br /><br />Thank you for your blog post.Anon Imishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00020836219200254528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4202987007072829982011-10-23T10:48:28.325-07:002011-10-23T10:48:28.325-07:00Sure they are acts, which are not self willed but ...Sure they are acts, which are not self willed but enabled by God (Holy Spirit). Capping on words does not help in this type of discussion. Fruits and of course gifts are not proprietry or copyrighted to the individual involved. Gifts emanate from the Holy Spirit and so the fruits which spring from gifts. Abuses have been acknowledged, it did not start today. <br /><br />My previous contribution is to correct the erroneous opinion that RCC is pitiable. In fact that's how " Fruits " came into the picture. I am ware people have "irreconcilable" prejudices against RCC. Your counter-attack seem to suggest you are one of them. You are a pastor and theologian probably. It would be fatal presumption to think you have never before read the scriptures I cited. Definitely you must have also read some Church documents and Church heirachical opinions and exhortations regarding RCC activities and conducts. We can start from there.<br /><br />Thanks for the opportunity your posting provided to express this contrary opinion. Let me state again, tongues in the present time is not an anathema nor a "mumble". It is a reality, abuses arising from ignorance and pride notwithstanding. It is normal that what people don't understand they rubbish through caricature or reducing it to self-pity.Vincentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13450208591003115512011-10-20T07:30:54.198-07:002011-10-20T07:30:54.198-07:00Vincent,
Interesting that you mention the "Fr...Vincent,<br />Interesting that you mention the "Fruits of the Holy Spirit" ... are you aware that the Catholic tradition has always maintained that the fruits are NOT "things" which we "possess" or have "recieved"? <br /><br />Rather, they are actions ... the 12 Fruits are the actions which spring from the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. <br /><br />... this is yet another example of the poor use of language which troubles me about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal -- persons involved in it regularly speak of the fruits as things which are given by God and held or possessed by the believer [and, simply, this is not what the fruits are ... they are not things, they are acts].Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-35749248548373648662011-10-20T02:24:20.125-07:002011-10-20T02:24:20.125-07:00VU
Thanks Elizabeth. Most, if not all bloggers he...VU<br /><br />Thanks Elizabeth. Most, if not all bloggers here have sounded paternalistic to the Charismatics, when they said, "I am open to Catholic Charismatic Movement". This also sounds sympathetic to their cause. In the first, place what you call Catholic Charismatic Movement is quite different from what you have in the Catholic Church. What you have in the Church is, Catholic Charismatic Renewal ( CCR). What the CCR needs is not "open to" or "sympathy" rather it needs participation of all in the Church. Catholic Charismatic Renewal and the Church are not mutually exclusive, they are on the same side of the one coin. CCR is not only about speaking in tongues. It also about other Gifts and more importantly about the Fruits.surely, nobody will doubt the authenticity of the divine origin of the Fruits. <br /><br />The issue of tongues has been controversial since even the time of the Apostles. You don't need to understand what is being spoken unless there is an interpreter. The Apostle Paul have tried to explain this phenomenon of tongues in Acts 10:44-47; 1Cor 14: 1- 25. It is true there are abuses that does not abrogate speaking in tongues. It is not only in CCR, it exists in every organization. CCR is an authentic catholic group.Vincentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70259629937208845062011-09-03T09:17:32.583-07:002011-09-03T09:17:32.583-07:00I was "saved" in an Assemblies of God (p...I was "saved" in an Assemblies of God (pentecostal) church at age 15. I tried and tried, but could never speak in tongues. In that church you are a second class christian if you don't, so I was not let into any positions of leadership. (the youth leader of the youth group). Eventually I realized that it is all just a scam. People just babble. What possible benefit is there to people mumbling, babbling, and yelling giberish? Is it just an inocent thing that we can look past? No. It is something unseen in the first 1900 years of the church. Whether you call it "praying in tongues" or spealikg, it is bad news. I personally think it is satanic, but again, that is my personal opinion from personal experience.<br /><br />At the very least we should agree that it is something Catholics should not engage in. Like centering prayer, yoga, being slain in the spirit, etc... these things are all about us, not the Lord. If you want to pray to God in a freeform way, why do you need to babble? You don't, it is all just for show and totally out of line. <br /><br />Now that I became Catholic last year (I am 36) I am really embarased that Catholics seem to have been infected by this silly practice that should have remained in the Protestant sects it originated with. Why must Catholics wallow in that mud? <br /><br />speaking/praying in tongues should be repudiated by every Catholic unless it is like the kind found with St. Francis Xavier or the New Testament. Otherwise it is foolish distraction at best, tempting evil at worst.david meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312094382712134522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87141392739573557972011-07-30T14:05:26.443-07:002011-07-30T14:05:26.443-07:00I was raised as a Catholic but to my shame left an...I was raised as a Catholic but to my shame left and later became a Protestant evangelical pentecostal and spoke in tongues again to my shame. To convince protestants that this is not of God, one must exegete 1 Co 14. If you will accept our Orthodox brothers, a great book is In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord by Fr Alexis Trader. He writes from the perspective of the desert fathers and readings from the Philokalia (from the time when the Church was one). An awesome read and our awesome God that through His kindness He has lead me to repentance and acceptance back home into the Catholic Church in which I was raised. God is good.<br /><br />CarolTo Know the Lordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01312864727903809988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75087006748223258142011-07-07T15:03:21.413-07:002011-07-07T15:03:21.413-07:00Dawn (Amma D.),
Certainly, your thoughts were echo...Dawn (Amma D.),<br />Certainly, your thoughts were echoed by a young Fr. Joseph Ratzinger ... for he also held (though I don't think he still does) that a good portion of the Mass had to be in the language of the people, so that they might understand it.<br /><br />However, I would point out that the comparison between Latin Mass and speaking in tongues is a bit off:<br />1) As much as I love Mass in Latin, I am not so bold as to claim it is a charism of the Holy Spirit! :)<br />2) St. Paul criticized that many people were speaking in tongues all at the same time and in a chaotic fashion ... this, of course, is nothing like the Traditional Latin Mass.<br />3) You do have an interpreter for Mass in Latin -- it's your Latin/English hand-missal ... in any case, it shouldn't be to hard to figure out what "Dominus vobiscum, Et cum spiritu tuo" means!<br />4) Most the Mass, the priest isn't talking to the people anyways ... why do they need to understand (or even hear) what he is saying?<br />5) Unless you know Hebrew, you can't "understand" the words "Amen" and "Alleluia" ... do you find these words to be equally troubling? Is "Amen" really that much more difficult than "Et cum spiritu tuo"? [I admit that the whole Mass in Latin is a challenge, but we also must recall that Latin isn't the only foreign language at Mass]<br /><br />In any case ... although I have a great love for the Usus Antiquior (i.e. the "Latin Mass"), I must admit that there is something to be said for the inclusion of some amount of the vernacular ... the Holy Father has allowed for this (in the readings) with the promulgation of the motu proprio on the TLM. <br /><br />Also, I would add that some of the prayers of the priest -- especially the Eucharistic prayer -- could be said silently and in Latin, since it is not entirely appropriate for the people to hear them (he is speaking to God, not to men). This is the opinion of Pope Benedict as well.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39683700050987265612011-07-07T12:08:18.486-07:002011-07-07T12:08:18.486-07:00As a Protestant I was involved in the Charismatic ...As a Protestant I was involved in the Charismatic movement, often with a slight wariness at some of the oddness. Now as a Catholic, I would take the Mass any day over a Charismatic worship. For me, it is reality and truth over feelings. <br /><br />But I have to say, I feel just as disconnected when I attend a Latin Mass. Can't understand a thing. To me, this is like speaking in tongues without an interpreter, which I think St. Paul says we are not to do.<br /><br />Amma D.Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00505748487921450524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8246180610346080852011-07-06T12:02:16.807-07:002011-07-06T12:02:16.807-07:00I'm not a member of the Charismatic Movement b...I'm not a member of the Charismatic Movement but I have met one person and heard of others in the Catholic Charismatic movement, who were actually speaking in a recognized language, although it was not a language that they had learned. They only found out when someone at a prayer meeting understood what they were saying.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01198856128213307540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29378231022933024862011-06-19T23:11:17.988-07:002011-06-19T23:11:17.988-07:00I personally, I like the non-Charismatic style. He...I personally, I like the non-Charismatic style. Here in Indonesia, Charismatic movement is getting bigger. I have no problem with the people that have interest in Charismatic prayers, but if I have to choose whether to go to mass with a charismatic group as the choir or the one with a choir of a bunch of old people singing rather flatly off the note, I'll definitely go with the second option. Why? Because when I do, unfortunately, attend a mass with charismatic style, it just doesn't give me the one thing I hope to experience from a mass, solitude. All the clapping and dancing, bla bla bla.. It's just too much for me.<br />even more to that, it feels as if I'm not in a catholic church but instead as if I'm going to my friend's church, Pentecostal church, or any Protestant church.<br />I remembered that there is case about a charismatic catholic group that went from being all Sola Gratia to the Lord to some sort of weird cult.<br />So, I'm saying no to Charismatic style. I'm more in to Examen, look in to one's self is way harder than saying 'Thank you, I love you God', out loud.I don't see any spirituality in Charismatic prayers aswell, n for me Spirituality is very important.<br /><br />In Christ Our Lord,<br />DolorosaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56798702180291737232011-06-18T23:15:44.187-07:002011-06-18T23:15:44.187-07:00Father,
An old spiritual father of mine was a mon...Father,<br /><br />An old spiritual father of mine was a monk on Mount Athos for twelve years before he left to profess union with Rome. He told me that in his monastery they would chant very long melismas on the word "Alleluia", for as long as an hour and a half (!) at a time. None of them of course entertained any delusions about it being a foreign language. This would seem much closer to the kind of glossolalia you mentioned as being a legitimate form of prayer, since Gregorian chant also employs long melismas.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />SeraphimSeraphimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75796214370239741962011-06-15T14:29:31.361-07:002011-06-15T14:29:31.361-07:00Years ago, I was involved with the charismatic ren...Years ago, I was involved with the charismatic renewal, and it nourished my love of scripture as the living word of God.<br /><br />I want to caution some of the posters (above) about nutty people, unstable people, troubled people, gullible people, and people of below-average attractiveness, intellect and economic status:<br /><br />If any segment of the church attracts and welcomes such people, respects them, ministers to them, and helps them feel valued and loved by God and by that circle of friends, there's a good possibility that that segment of the church is a blessing to us all.<br /><br />I am the leader of an utterly orthodox parish bible study. My spiritual director thinks that the fact that we have a few "eccentrics" in the group is a sign of its spiritual health. Unfortunately, it's the "eccentrics" who express the most enthusiasm for bible study, and some people think the group is a little odd. <br />Don't judge the whole charismatic renewal too hastily.<br /><br />KathleenKathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07023469274544648759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36446559521421778572011-06-09T20:39:03.189-07:002011-06-09T20:39:03.189-07:00@John 1:23, You are most certainly welcome to comm...@John 1:23, You are most certainly welcome to comment here! Obviously, this is a blog intended for Catholic theology; hence, all the articles are written primarily for a Catholic audience.<br />Still, it is my hope that many non-Catholics would also find the articles helpful on some level as well.<br /><br /><br />regarding your particular comment ... I agree that there are certainly some cases where individuals "fake it", but I also think we have to be very careful to not make a blanket attack. So, I sympathize with your concerns, but I also add that there are many good and honest people who are charismatics (in fact, I presume that most of them are good, honest people) -- and we wouldn't want to through everyone into the same bag.<br /><br />On the level of doctrine, however, I (like you) do not see how this "mumbling" can be called either speaking or praying "in tongues".<br /><br />Peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-58703047777294559112011-06-09T17:55:42.044-07:002011-06-09T17:55:42.044-07:00I myself am a Protestant, I do hope that isn't...I myself am a Protestant, I do hope that isn't a problem to my posting here. Specifically I am an Independent Baptist Preacher. I personally do not agree with the doctrine of 'tongues' as is taught amongst some other Protestant denominations. I very much enjoyed reading this article, agree with its premise, and found it quite enlightening. I would like to make these two contributions to this comment chain: <br /><br />1. Among those whom speak in 'tongues' now days, how many of them can actually speak a foreign HUMAN language? I have heard of groups speaking in tongues in foreign countries and having to say 'Hallelujah' to explain to the natives what they were doing, because they could not speak the native language. This is a direct contradiction to how the gift of 'tongues' in the Bible is stated to operate. <br /><br />2. I feel it can be a matter of lying, and peer pressure. One finds them self in a congregation that teaches one MUST speak in 'tongues' to be Saved (enter Heaven) and the congregation will frantically seek to aid that person in gaining this gift from God. The person eventually caves and mumbles nonsense just to appease the congregation, and their own conscience. I feel that in some cases it can be more malicious lying, the reason for this would probably vary from money, to reputation. <br /><br />I do hope I wasn't out of line commenting on this. I have two dear Catholic friends that showed me this article as we had discussed our agreed dislike of the 'tongue' doctrine. Again, I thoroughly enjoyed this article.John 1:23https://www.blogger.com/profile/18134230792517494429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-37242755763314092692011-06-09T15:32:24.049-07:002011-06-09T15:32:24.049-07:00Chatto,
You may find the update I posted at the bo...Chatto,<br />You may find the update I posted at the bottom of the article helpful.<br /><br />I don't think that we should call it "praying in tongues", because "tongues" means languages and not simply mumbling. <br />[I do not think it is helpful to separate a biblical sense from a charismatic sense ... since the charisms are based on scriptural attestation, I would want the "charism"atic movement to use the word "tongues" in the same way St. Paul did]<br /><br />Regarding how we can tell it is authentic tongues ... a trained linguist could tell (after study), but there is certainly no easy a priori way. [most of the time, the excessive repetition of the same sounds indicates that it is not a true human language]<br /> <br />However, St. Paul seems to think that it is a bad idea to speak in tongues (in the sense of the true charism) if there is not someone there to interpret.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71417729323619124392011-06-09T14:41:27.395-07:002011-06-09T14:41:27.395-07:00Father,
I posted this article on Facebook, having...Father,<br /><br />I posted this article on Facebook, having several friends who are in involved in the CCR here in the UK. One of them has asked how we can tell the difference between 'speaking in Tongues' in the biblical sense, and 'praying in tongues' in the charismatic sense, unless everyone present has the gift of interpretation, and so can tell the difference. Is there an <i>a priori</i> way of telling the difference? After all, what might sound like mumbling to me may be Cantonese, or French, for all I know!Chattohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488939389859451887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-9475879576346159122011-06-08T20:48:42.111-07:002011-06-08T20:48:42.111-07:00Michelangelo,
Yes, I do think that when Vianney an...Michelangelo,<br />Yes, I do think that when Vianney and Padre Pio could confess people in a foreign language this was a participation in the charism of speaking in tongues -- it is not the full charism as it was in the early Church (since the apostles could speak many many languages at will), but it is certainly something of this charism.<br /><br />Also, I would point out that St. Francix Xavier was said to have possessed this charism when he evangelized India (though I do not know the whole story here, apparently he was gifted with a sudden knowledge of many of the Indian languages).<br /><br />Finally, I would say that these saintly confessors also had the gift of words -- i.e. to know exactly the right word to say at the moment and to speak with a supernatural authority.<br /><br />There is no doubt of this: Charisms are still alive and well in the Church (at least among many of the saints).Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-34097768424900210332011-06-08T18:04:03.405-07:002011-06-08T18:04:03.405-07:00The Charismatic movement is much more than speakin...The Charismatic movement is much more than speaking in tongues, it also involves singing songs of praise, giving testimonials of God's work in our daily lives, a deeper prayer life, and a closeness to fellow Catholics. As well, it has brought me closer to the Catholic Church and the Marian devotion. As for speaking in tongues, it is very rare that we hear anyone in our group speaking in tongues, but at the end of the meeting we mostly all pray in tongues when we pray over our prayer petitions; it's a nice getaway from the more conscious form of prayer. Do I always pray in tongues, no I still prefer the Our Father as an answer to all my prayers. <br />BobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56033087028954892562011-06-08T17:44:45.500-07:002011-06-08T17:44:45.500-07:00Father,
Michelangelo here, thank you very much fo...Father,<br /><br />Michelangelo here, thank you very much for answering my questions posed a few days ago in another subject. I was active in the Charismatic Renewal years ago, and like Dismas, my mother's spiritual life really developed and also took on other dimensions, such as daily Mass, praying the liturgy of the hours and a deeper dedication to reading the Bible and intercessory prayer. I have met several people who claim to have been healed from incurable diseases through Mom's intercessory prayer. <br /><br />I also developed in my spiritual life through the good guidance of solid Catholic priests and laymen who were in leadership roles in the various prayer groups I attended. I think this is key. <br /><br />Normal Catholic formation has to do with the whole person, and a healthy pious lay association in the Church forms its participants intellectually, spiritually, liturgically, etc, according to its "charism" or mission. Some Catholic Charismatic prayer groups are/were very good and solid, others, not so much. The choral "prayer in tongues" at the Cathedral in Bridgeport, back a few years, was hauntingly beautiful. The specific examples of one speaking in a tongue and another interpreting it, were regular occurrences, the subject of which was typically an exhortation to holiness. Currently I am a daily Mass altar boy, and a lay Carmelite, and working on my personal conversion daily. So I would say from a personal point of view, the movement has been a good thing for me, though I don't have a lot of experience personally with speaking in tongues. <br /><br />Do you think, Father, that the stories of Ss. Jean Vianney and Padre Pio confessing people in their native languages is a specific application of this charism, or does this phenomenon, assuming it is true, fall into a separate category of the Grace of the Holy Spirit? God bless you.Michelangelonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-11483576542014351342011-06-08T17:39:01.500-07:002011-06-08T17:39:01.500-07:00Disputationist,
St. Thomas is in the same line as ...Disputationist,<br />St. Thomas is in the same line as St. John Chrysostom ... commenting on 1Cor 14:2 he writes, "Therefore, when the Apostle mentions here about speaking a tongue, he means an unknown language not interpreted; as when on might speak German to a Frenchman without an interpreter, he is speaking in a tongue."<br /><br />I suppose that St. Paul says "speaks not to men but to God" because (presumably) only God understands the language at the time -- not that the words are not from a real language, but only that none of the men present at the prayer service speak that language.<br />If, on the other hand, the language is spoken when out in the missions, then (presumably) the foreign peoples will understand and the speech will not be merely to God (i.e. understood only by God) but also to men (i.e. understood by those to whom the missionary is speaking).<br /><br />That is my best shot at an explanation! :)Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-16625393899966124762011-06-08T17:24:46.833-07:002011-06-08T17:24:46.833-07:00Thanks, Father. Looking forward to it.
DanThanks, Father. Looking forward to it.<br /><br />DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72439092049151655872011-06-08T17:13:41.718-07:002011-06-08T17:13:41.718-07:00Some of Holy Doctor Chrysostom's commentary on...Some of Holy Doctor Chrysostom's commentary on the verses from 1 Cor 14 seem to support your claim that 'tongues' are languages and meant for missionary work:<br /><br />"Wherefore then did the Apostles receive it before the rest? Because they were to go abroad every where. And as in the time of building the tower the one tongue was divided into many; so then the many tongues frequently met in one man, and the same person used to discourse both in the Persian, and the Roman, and the Indian, and many other tongues, the Spirit sounding within him: and the gift was called the gift of tongues because he could all at once speak various languages. [...] For if a man should speak only in the Persian, or any other foreign tongue, and not understand what he says, then of course to himself also will he be thenceforth a barbarian, not to another only, from not knowing the meaning of the sound. For there were of old many who had also a gift of prayer, together with a tongue; and they prayed, and the tongue spoke, praying either in the Persian or Latin language , but their understanding knew not what was spoken. "<br /><br />But I still don't understand why Paul says "speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him" how does this fit with the idea that it's a foreign language meant for missionary work?<br /><br />-DisputationistAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-33918895618653128642011-06-08T17:01:08.208-07:002011-06-08T17:01:08.208-07:00@Joe (June 8, 2011 2:14 AM )
That's very inte...@Joe (June 8, 2011 2:14 AM )<br /><br />That's very interesting, and sounds like exactly the sort of verification I was meaning when I said, "record it and ask the experts." It sounds like the people who were recorded in that instance were indeed frauds. <br /><br />Which doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of pressure to conform in these groups. Thus, even supposing the phenomenon to genuinely be supernatural in a few cases, there's going to be a lot of people consciously or unconsciously faking it.<br /><br />I've talked with at least one individual who had a very pushy "charismatic" youth group leader growing up. The pressure to conform was so great that she and others were definitely faking the "slain in the spirit" thing just so they wouldn't get on the bad side of the youth leader.<br /><br />And that's leaving aside cases where the subject might experience as passive/involuntary a "slain in the spirit" event that he or she was actually actively causing (albeit subconsciously) as a response to suggestion.<br /><br />Parallel comments could probably be made about "praying/speaking in tongues" events. Probably a person could incorrectly experience that as involuntary as well.Tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-32053864297383189322011-06-08T16:58:16.589-07:002011-06-08T16:58:16.589-07:00Thank you for the clarification, Father. I know it...Thank you for the clarification, Father. I know it wasn't the issue you were discussing but it simply caught my eye so thank you for indulging me. Yours is an interesting observation. I have also noticed issues among some traditionalists that seem to basically be different expressions of the same issues that can be observed on the opposite side of the spectrum (which they propose to be acting against). Fallen human nature is what it is, I guess. There are only so many vices, after all, but a wide variety of expressions and outlets and excuses. <br /><br /><br />-AJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com