tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post406451537390889057..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Perspectives on the Jews and salvation, from Luke and PaulFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55763033066497143882011-08-23T08:33:18.095-07:002011-08-23T08:33:18.095-07:00J,
I see I missed responding to your last comment....J,<br />I see I missed responding to your last comment.<br /><br />I did not intend to imply that I thought you were attacking either me or Fr. Martin, I only meant to say that the liberal theologians to which you refer (those who think that the Jews are saved by the Old Covenant) are really not my concern -- they are so far gone!<br /><br />Also, I mean to say that I just don't have time to attack these theologians -- their own claim is utterly rediculous, since NO ONE ever (not before Christ and not after Christ) no one has been saved by the Old Covenant per se, but only insofar as the Old Covenant is related to the New ... all salvation has always come through Christ Jesus and the New Covenant in his Blood.<br /><br />However, regarding the current state of affairs ... it is pretty clear from the Apostolic tradition that we are to be focused primarily upon the Gentiles -- esp. St. Paul makes this clear when he states that now is the time for the conversion of the Gentiles (since the Jews have stumbled).<br />This conversion of the Gentiles will excite a holy jealousy among the Jews and they too will return!<br /><br />I hope that this makes sense ... I really don't think you and I are talking past each other ... I think we are saying very much the same thing, but in a different language.<br /><br />Peace to you in Christ our Savior. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15327166196676775252011-08-19T08:50:42.554-07:002011-08-19T08:50:42.554-07:00Apologies if you felt I was leveling any accusatio...Apologies if you felt I was leveling any accusations towards you. Nothing of the sort was meant to be implied. I have merely been looking for a certain clarity on these matters, but I fear we've been talking past each other instead.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02124903563459448051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-43345353424924021382011-08-19T07:50:52.283-07:002011-08-19T07:50:52.283-07:00J,
I'm sorry, but if you think that it is a tr...J,<br />I'm sorry, but if you think that it is a trivial thing to point out to a Jew that he is the descendant of Abraham and of Jesus (and that he is a member of the chosen people) -- if you think that this makes no significant difference in the practical mode of evangelization -- then this discussion will not be fruitful.<br /><br />And, by the way, it is simply not the case that the Apostles thought the mission to the Jews was primary ... they very quickly abandonded this mission and focused entirely on the Gentiles ... while Peter was the apostle to the Jews, all the other Apostles went to the Gentiles (even James the Less did more [perhaps] with the Gentile converts to Judaism than with the Jews themselves).<br /><br />And, as far as these "theologians" who suggest that "Jews are fine where they are" ... certainly none of them have written anything on this blog. I radically disagree with such supposed "theologians", but I don't want to waste my time in a comment box bashing them -- especially since they probably don't read my blog anyways.<br />In any case, what I have said in the post would contradict their mistaken ideas.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-85609568340732741132011-08-19T07:08:04.462-07:002011-08-19T07:08:04.462-07:00I would say that the Jews would be evangelized wit...<em>I would say that the Jews would be evangelized with a stronger focus on how Jesus fulfills the Old Covenant.</em><br /><br />That seems like a minor difference (at least in practical terms), and one that's quickly becoming irrelevant considering the widespread secularization of Jews in the Western world. If anything, arguing for the Faith from a philosophical starting point is much more difficult than building on the ready-made edifice of the Hebrew religion. I guess I don't see how the mission to the Jews would be "much different" from the mission to the Gentiles, unless—taking our direction from the Apostles—it's that the former is made the priority. But it's exactly this priority which many theologians argue against, suggesting that practicing Jews are fine where they are without conversion.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02124903563459448051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-73842287857075707632011-08-18T09:16:55.278-07:002011-08-18T09:16:55.278-07:00J,
Taking our direction from the Apostles, I would...J,<br />Taking our direction from the Apostles, I would say that the Jews would be evangelized with a stronger focus on how Jesus fulfills the Old Covenant.<br /><br />The missio ad gentes, on the other hand, might have a stronger philosophical basis -- as in moving from the "unknown god" to "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".<br /><br />Hope that makes sense. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-5329977082311856862011-08-18T08:49:11.120-07:002011-08-18T08:49:11.120-07:00Perhaps I was unclear. In what sense are Jews to b...Perhaps I was unclear. In what sense are Jews to be evangelized differently than the Gentiles? Practically speaking, how would this be different?J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02124903563459448051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52270743083391367312011-08-18T08:30:55.895-07:002011-08-18T08:30:55.895-07:00@J
You asked "in what sense, sense?" ......@J<br />You asked "in what sense, sense?" ... My reply: Insofar as the Jews are not the "gentes", they are not Gentiles.<br />Hence, they should be Evangelized according to a different mode.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-82880759629358361092011-08-18T07:29:14.937-07:002011-08-18T07:29:14.937-07:00In a real sense, they are not included in the '...<em>In a real sense, they are not included in the 'missio ad gentes', but are in their own class.</em><br /><br />But in <em>what</em> sense, exactly? A heterodox theologian could use that same wording to defend <em>not</em> evangelizing the Jews. However, if we are to follow the example of Christ and the Apostles, the Church's mission to the Jews should be even more robust and insistent than that to the Gentiles. Unfortunately, the opposite is the rule these days.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02124903563459448051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78816570156054199752011-08-18T04:41:51.418-07:002011-08-18T04:41:51.418-07:00Father, sorry to keep going but this is something ...Father, sorry to keep going but this is something that's been concerning me since Jesus of Nazareth II. I used to hold a universalist view of salvation, in which all were saved through Christ but their acceptance of him in this life was immaterial. As we know the orthodox understanding of ExEcNuSa is, as you said, that it is possible, good will, baptism of desire etc. <br /><br />But my understanding of it back in the day was because of this, there was no real need to evangelise anyone because the 'saving through Christ' could happen in their last moments, or after death, or whatever.<br /><br />But it seems unclear at the moment regarding all this post-Jesus of Nazareth II discussions whether or not we're still bound by that understanding that 'God is not bound by the sacraments, but we are'. Because lets be honest, how many Jews are actually of no fault of their own ignorant of Christ? It does not seem in keeping with a hermeneutic of continuity to assume (consciously or otherwise) that anyone who has not accepted Christ as the messiah has failed to do so out of inculpable ignorance (which seems to be a pretty common thing I've encountered at any rate).<br /><br />Thank you Father for taking the time to respond to these comments, I read the earlier post and I know you find them the most stressful and time-consuming part of it!Multum Incolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817574956365161041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-12429539862428716392011-08-17T16:15:40.684-07:002011-08-17T16:15:40.684-07:00Multum,
It is clear that it is not absolutely nece...Multum,<br />It is clear that it is not absolutely necessary that Jews formally become Christians in order to be saved ... for it is at least theoretically possible that persons of good will who through no fault of their own are ignorant of Christ can yet be saved.<br />Still, no one is saved (and none were every saved) through the Old Covenant per se -- salvation is only through Christ.<br /><br />Regarding the mission to the Jews ... I think that we should have a "special mission" to them ... insofar as they should be treated as different from the Gentiles ... and this mission will look much different from the mission to the Gentiles.<br />In a real sense, they are not included in the 'missio ad gentes', but are in their own class.<br /><br />Peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3590423674028574092011-08-17T14:25:41.109-07:002011-08-17T14:25:41.109-07:00I didn't know that St Teresa thought that, nor...I didn't know that St Teresa thought that, nor does it seem particularly important. The question I suppose I am asking is, are you saying that Jews do not have to formally become Christians in order to be saved? I am aware of the correct understanding of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus and all of the associated stuff and the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. <br /><br />What I mean is, when an individual Jew realises that Our Lord is the Messiah, is it all the same whether he is baptised or not? <br /><br />I don't understand this 'we shouldn't have a special mission to the Jews' thing. I don't get it because it seems a bit irrelevant. Surely the Church has a mission to ALL of mankind, including both Jew and Gentile?Multum Incolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817574956365161041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4025230150884353622011-08-14T17:14:31.071-07:002011-08-14T17:14:31.071-07:00Father,
Thanks for the answer. This would meand t...Father,<br /><br />Thanks for the answer. This would meand that there are two chosen peoples. Us and the Jews.<br /><br />To MI's question: Well then why on Earth did St. Teresa Benedicta believe that her mum will earn salvation? Clearly she did not (though we never know); she died as a practicing Jew. And the Saint did know: "that no-one is saved except in the name of Christ Jesus our Lord."Petrus Augustinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03296159071531531990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-63407767643711794812011-08-14T16:08:01.246-07:002011-08-14T16:08:01.246-07:00Multum Incola,
I guess I don't know what you m...Multum Incola,<br />I guess I don't know what you mean ... I think that it has been made pretty clear that no-one is saved except in the name of Christ Jesus our Lord.<br />Peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71747674899572319572011-08-14T13:11:17.032-07:002011-08-14T13:11:17.032-07:00But the thing no-one seems to talk about now - wha...But the thing no-one seems to talk about now - what about individual Jews?Multum Incolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817574956365161041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-85660709149310290382011-08-13T21:52:12.446-07:002011-08-13T21:52:12.446-07:00Angela and MichaelP,
I'd rather not get into t...Angela and MichaelP,<br />I'd rather not get into the question of the mission to the Gentiles here ... that deserves a separate article (which I may someday have time to write).<br /><br />Let me state simply: The concern of the Church to Evangelize the Gentiles most certainly ought to be handled differently from that directed toward the Jews. <br />This gives room for Pope Benedict's statements on the issue.<br /><br />And, as to whether the Christ could return soon ... certainly! It is not as though the conversion of the Jews has to be a visible and easily recognizable event ... indeed, much as the Messiah came in a surprising way which did not fit anyone's expectations, it is quite likely that the conversion of the Jews (as a people) will mean something different than we might expect.<br /><br />Peace to you both! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87346844795724509362011-08-13T19:51:03.469-07:002011-08-13T19:51:03.469-07:00Father, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought th...Father, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Catholic Church taught that there is nothing left to happen that would prevent the return of Christ, our Lord. If this is the case, then the conversion of the Jews, as a people, is not needed for the salvation of the Gentiles.<br /><br />Thank you for the reflection.<br /><br />Pax Christi,<br />MichaelCM7https://www.blogger.com/profile/07438061668265715771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-41143076027801999922011-08-13T17:38:32.323-07:002011-08-13T17:38:32.323-07:00Fr. Ryan,
I am not one of your scholarly readers...Fr. Ryan,<br /> <br />I am not one of your scholarly readers. I feel that I am understanding what you are saying in this post, but I am a little confused about salvation that "comes only from the Jews" as St John says, and as you further stated, "In other words, we Gentiles are not going to be saved without the Jews..."; and added that St. Paul " does not seem to think that the Gentiles can be saved without the conversion of the Jews." I believe that God alone brings everything into fruition, but in the meantime, do we have a responsibility at all to pray for this conversion to come to pass since our fate as Gentiles also hinges on this? I am asking this because Pope Benedict XVI said sometime back that Christianity “must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews.” Thank you, Father.Angelanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-19064921240980009772011-08-13T15:16:37.747-07:002011-08-13T15:16:37.747-07:00Petrus,
I (and St. Paul) use the word "Jew&qu...Petrus,<br />I (and St. Paul) use the word "Jew" as referring to their natural lineage, not to their religion. <br />This should clear up most of the points you mentioned in your comment.<br /><br />Insofar as they are the descendants of the Patriarchs (according to the flesh), they are the chosen people of God. <br />Insofar as the Apostles and even the Christ came from them (according to the flesh), they are the chosen people of God.<br />Insofar as they will be converted, as a people (according to the flesh), they are the chosen people of God.<br /><br />Yes, of course they will have to believe in Christ ... but the fact that God has a special love for this people clearly shows that we can meaningfully state that they are still today a "chosen" people -- for the election of God is irrevocable.<br /><br />So, yes, I would say that there is something special about the fact that they are related to Jesus by blood ... at least, that is the very clear opinion of St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (and it is implicitly approved by Bl. John Paul II when he quotes her in the canonization homily).<br /><br />Hope things are clearer! It is a very difficult topic to be sure! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-86950687272159626852011-08-13T14:12:28.334-07:002011-08-13T14:12:28.334-07:00Father,
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems ...Father,<br /><br />Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that what St. Paul says is that there'll be no Jews (at the end), only Christians (People of Christ), since all the Jews will convert. In fact (though God knew this was not going to happen, of course) the chosen people of the OT (Jews) should've accepted Christ as Messiah and they should've become Christians. Some of them did (all the Apostles), a lot of them didn't (they've murdered the Messiah instead and invoked His blood on themselves and their offspring). <br /><br />Now what I'm gathering here (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that God let this thing to happen to Jews, He let them fail, only that they could convert, come back again and be Christians (and possibly save the world). I mean that's what we pray for on the Feast of Christ the King.<br /><br />This would still mean that:<br />1. Present-day Jews are not chosen and are not favoured by God.<br />2. Present-day Jews are not the same as OT Jews.<br />3.Present-day Jews won't earn Salvation unless they turn Catholic.<br /><br />BUT! If they turn Catholic, their connection to our Messiah will be stronger than ours? Because they are related by blood?<br /><br />Sorry father, this might seem as a mess but I still think these are important questions.Petrus Augustinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03296159071531531990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39973679293303179282011-08-13T10:17:46.272-07:002011-08-13T10:17:46.272-07:00@J,
Interesting point ... you are correct that God...@J,<br />Interesting point ... you are correct that God allowed the Jews to stubble so that the Gentiles might be converted ... still, the final word is that the Jews will then be re-converted and that this return of the Jews (as a people) will effect the final redemption of the whole world. <br />So, it is not so much that the conversion of the Gentiles saves the Jews (though, as Paul says, it will make them "jealous" so that they will return), but the re-conversion of the Jews saves the Gentiles (just as their fall gave room for the Gentiles).<br /><br />Hope that makes sense, thank you for stressing the point about how the two peoples assist each other on the way to salvation! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39384468897435958462011-08-13T07:36:44.481-07:002011-08-13T07:36:44.481-07:00St. Paul does not seem to think that the Gentiles ...<em>St. Paul does not seem to think that the Gentiles can be saved without the conversion of the Jews.</em><br /><br />I'm sorry, but doesn't St. Paul imply the opposite, that the Jews cannot be saved without the conversion of the <em>Gentiles</em>?—"blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in." Or am I misunderstanding you?<br /><br />I am not saying this to disagree with what seems to be your central thesis—that "the gifts and the calling of God [to the Jews] are without repentance"—just that I'm unclear how you mean to interpret St. Paul.<br /><br />What are your thoughts on other, later indications of Divine favor to countries and people groups, such as the popular belief that England is "Mary's dowry"? Such favors must be of a different type than that showed to the Hebrews before Christ, considering the universal mission of the Church in the Christian era.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02124903563459448051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15994561362887985082011-08-13T07:23:03.600-07:002011-08-13T07:23:03.600-07:00Dear Father,
Thank you. This passage from Roman...Dear Father, <br /><br />Thank you. This passage from Romans has always had great meaning to me, and your explanation of the tension and the two different accents between Luke and Paul really helps me to understand the mystery of the Jews as the Chosen People of God, the current situation, and the future situation. It is a cause for fervent prayer for my own salvation, for the members of the Church, and for the Jews and all those not yet evangelized. <br /><br />I was just reading from L'Etoile dans La Montagne, certainly the true apparitions of Our Lord and Our Lady, the Angels and Saints, apply to all people, and it is fair to say in a special way to the Jews. The message of renunciation of sin, conversion, and reparation for my sins is universal. A propos of the lost sheep, and the empty arms of the Shepherd, do you know the poem, Maternity, by Alice Meynell? It is my current favorite, even tho I'm an old fart bachelor. It reminds me in a way of the Divine Mercy Chaplet. God bless you, Father.Michelangelonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-74549030184205903272011-08-13T06:38:50.035-07:002011-08-13T06:38:50.035-07:00Thank you so much for this commentary on the Jews....Thank you so much for this commentary on the Jews. I have known many Jews who have become Christians. The depth of their understanding and their joy at knowing their Messiah is amazing. They are, after all the olive tree, while we Gentiles are the ingrafted branches. And thanks be to God for grafting us in.<br /><br />SusanSusanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08488607586771327202noreply@blogger.com