tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post4386698108538421151..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Why does God give to some five and to others only one talent?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger125125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45879386278816829732013-12-08T08:50:30.338-08:002013-12-08T08:50:30.338-08:00The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hat...The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.....Psalm 5:5. It does appear according to scripture that God does love some more than others. The word hatest in this passage of scripture means just what it says. It means that He hates the sinner and the sin. God is so holy that He hates those that live in constant habitual sin and those that hate Him. Even if the word hate in this scripture were to mean less than it would still prove the point that God loves some more than others.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651647358043015617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47776671197071650772013-02-07T05:58:41.412-08:002013-02-07T05:58:41.412-08:00from francis:
i think all these discussions about...from francis:<br /><br />i think all these discussions about how unequal God is in dispensing his Love and Graces to his children smacks of selfishness. we lose sight of the fact that no matter how good or holy we are, the amount of love or grace we receive is purely gratuitous which we do not deserve one bit because of our sinful nature. instead of focusing on our being at the "receiving end" of God's Love, why do we not just reflect on the giving back to God the love that He so richly deserves as our Creator. please forget about worrying why another person is more loved by God. that's His prerogative and we have no right to dictate. rather, the question we should be asking is ...... WHAT AM I DOING TO LOVE GOD MORE THAN THE HOLY PERSON STANDING NEXT TO ME? i believe that when we love God with all our heart, mind and soul, nothing else should matter anymore, not even the question of why others receive more love and graces from Him. LOVING GOD "AS NEAR TO PERFECTION AS POSSIBLE" IS ALREADY A LIBERATING AND UPLIFTING SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE PERSONALLY. what more can you ask for!!! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15217096712589633512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71873276331794267952012-10-11T06:19:53.018-07:002012-10-11T06:19:53.018-07:00Thank you!!Thank you!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14940357822979283869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-92097971967358155672012-09-30T20:55:05.851-07:002012-09-30T20:55:05.851-07:00I am no theologian so please forgive any foolishne...I am no theologian so please forgive any foolishness but if God loves some more than others then won't that mean he will rule over a house divided? I have seen homes where parents favor one child over the others it eventually sows seeds of anger,sadness, hate and jealousy until it boils over. Then isn't God sowing these seeds in us by instigating a policy of "love all but some more than others"<br /><br />And while I understand that it's by his own will to love us and not some law that he is governed by why would he willingly lavish some while snubbing others though we are all brothers it just seems unGod like at least to me.Dark lightnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-49944604603797159302012-08-22T06:11:35.165-07:002012-08-22T06:11:35.165-07:00Ok, I've read the post. I know some theologian...Ok, I've read the post. I know some theologians defend the same postion expressed in the post. However, however, this is a blog discussing thelogy, isn't it? So, I miss the counter-argument. Where are the theologians who present a different view? I'd like to see those opinions, since I'm just a lay woman with no background in theology.<br /><br />Ana Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-11769962577743870332012-03-06T13:40:58.650-08:002012-03-06T13:40:58.650-08:00can some one explain me please
I'm mexican, i...can some one explain me please<br /><br />I'm mexican, i was able to go to school and college in my country, I even went to study at NYU a master degree, when i arrived to NY i realized of how the world is really unfair, I met many mexicans living there that didn't have any chance to go to school or anything over here, therefore they migrate illegally to the us. I really feel (and i dont wanna be rude at all) after talking to them, that they were not very smart cause they didnt go to school at all... i mean they are nice, and they were always nice to me cause im mexican, but clearly you can't go into a deep conversation with them, not saying that i'm smart at all but that's what i feel... and i never realized about that when living in mexico cause i dont meet these guys very often over here.<br /><br />so my questions is.<br /><br />talent depends on education, what talent can you develop if you don't have any education, <br /><br />cheers!<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55299045585773337642011-11-27T23:14:41.238-08:002011-11-27T23:14:41.238-08:00Dear Fr.,
I will most definitely back you up on th...Dear Fr.,<br />I will most definitely back you up on that last comment that God would be good if He did not offer salvation to anybody. First and foremost the gift of Heaven is exactly that, a most gracious gift. When I try to teach people this in my experience I give them the analogy of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden trying to claw their way up at the sky trying to get into Heaven by their own selves. They could never do it, in fact it's quite silly to think they could. I think this might help to show the manner by which grace is exactly that, grace, a gift. Yet nobody should claim that God is indifferent to the salvation of mankind, He offered His only Son to suffer personally for each and every one of us, but He was totally free to do this of His own freedom, not compelled to do it (Christ Himself says in the Gospel that nobody takes His life from Him but He lays it down of His own free will).<br /><br />This correlates well to a form of Jewish prayer where a litany of the good deeds of God for us (and the people of Israel) is recited with a response, "It would have been enough." The idea is that one good deed for us would have been more than enough to show the generosity and graciousness of God.<br /><br />Though I'm sure you've probably better analogies that may help here than my simple ones.<br /><br />With respect to Derek, I don't think you should characterize St. Thomas' idea of predestination so simply, you've actually presented somewhat of a straw man. Having read St. Thomas of Aquinas on predestination, forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't think you've actually perceived all of the subtlety in St. Thomas of Aquinas' teaching on predestination especially with your comments on making God into a wicked human father, in fact I suggest spending some time perhaps re-reading the text from the Summa and maybe even taking a look at some of the other scholastics' treatment of the matter; sometimes it takes a little experience in Scholasticism to perceive the subtleties that can tame what seemed like a barbarous and offensive text in to one filled with wisdom. The Scholastics are well known for their subtlety, to put it bluntly.<br /><br />Nor do I think you should characterize Thomists so lightly. Would you characterize Augustinians or Franciscans as following a cult of St. Augustine of Hippo or of perhaps the Franciscans of being obsessed with St. Bonaventure or Bl. John Duns Scotus? Thomists are much men like you and I trying to gain inspiration and insights from holy saints who spent hours in prayer and contemplation, assisted by grace. I'm not so much a Thomist myself as I have St. Augustine as my confirmation saint, but I recognize the great worth of St. Thomas especially in the department of the doctrine of grace where I think he supplements St. Augustine well. All this in mind I doubt serious Thomists consider St. Thomas as inerrant as you might suppose, it may be charitable to think of Thomists as being Catholics first, and then Thomist second.<br /><br />God bless.Steven Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12601858164034778521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-83848905161127119312011-11-25T08:58:14.022-08:002011-11-25T08:58:14.022-08:00@Derek,
I will counter with one last point ... I t...@Derek,<br />I will counter with one last point ... I think that you fall into the error condemned by Pius XII in "Humani Generis".<br /><br />Pius XII says that it is an error to claim that God, in his goodness, must save (or offer salvation) to rational creatures. That God would not be good if he did not offer salvation.<br />[this is idea is condemned]<br /><br />In fact, God does offer salvation - on this we agree, as do all the Thomists. However, God does not HAVE TO offer salvation, he would still be good even if he did not offer salvation - and on this we disagree.<br /><br />You state very clearly in your comment that God cannot be good if he does not offer salvation to all people ... and I respond that God would be good even if he had not created us, let alone offer us salvation, let alone send his Son to redeem us after the Fall!<br />God would be good even if he did not will all men to be saved.<br /><br />Now, if fact, God did create us (he even creates us in grace), and he did redeem us after the fall through the death of his Son, and he does will all to be saved ... but this is not a necessary consequent of God's goodness ... he is not obliged to save us (or even to attempt to save us).<br /><br />God is free in choosing to save us, he is not obliged, his goodness does not demand it of necessity ... and you have confused this point very much.<br /><br />[interestingly, it is God's freedom and generosity which the Thomists emphasize most of all]<br /><br /><br />In any case ... this whole debate only barely touches upon this article ... since the main source of the article was Fr. Cornelius a' Lapide, who is a Jesuit, and not a strict Thomist, but rather a Molinist (which is the position which you seem to favor) ... so my article is very much in the middle of the road between the Thomists and the Molinists (except the final quote from St. Thomas, of course).<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69808067459593063422011-11-25T08:49:28.258-08:002011-11-25T08:49:28.258-08:00@Derek,
The whole question of sufficient and effic...@Derek,<br />The whole question of sufficient and efficacious grace is a complicated one ... if you are really serious about trying to understand what the Thomists think, I suggest you read the book "Predestination" by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange (I have it linked on line in the right sidebar of NTM).<br /><br />I will say this: You have not understood what the Thomists think, and the position you attack as "Thomism" in your comment is not Thomism at all ... it is a straw-man.<br /><br />I will take one particularly outrageous line - you claim that "sufficient grace is not really suffficient, though they [the Thomists] call it that ... in effect they're saying something more like it's sufficient for codnemnation."<br />This is pure slander! The Thomists most certainly do not think that sufficient grace is a sufficient cause of sin and damnation! <br /><br />This theme runs throughout your comment -- as though God causes men to sin (according to the Thomists) and then damns them for that sin.<br />In effect, you accuse the Thomists of being Calvinists. You simply cannot do this ... literally, if you are Catholic, you cannot do this - the Church has stated that the Thomists cannot be accused of heresy; and neither can the Molinists (Jesuits). <br />You are way out of your league on this one.<br /><br /><br />To give a brief outline of a few points of Thomism (to correct you false-version "straw man"):<br />1) God wills all to be saved with an antecedent will.<br />2) God governs all things and is the primary cause of all things and actions insofar as they are have existence (he does not cause sin itself, since sin is a privation not a possitive reality)<br />3) Human beings (and angels) have free will and exercise this free will within God's providence ... providence is what allows men to have free will ... God causes men (and angels) to have free will.<br />4) Predestination is certain, sure and infallible ... it is also part of the free choice of the man/angel (because we are more free when moved by grace to choose the good).<br />5) Not all are predestined (at least not Satan and his angels, and anyone else who is or ends up in hell). <br />6) These are called reprobate -- not that God predestines them to hell, but that he condemns them on account of their sins. God truly wills their salvation (antecedently), but in his consequent will (upon the judgment) he wills that they be condemned on account of their sins.<br />7) All receive sufficient grace such that they could be saved.<br /><br />8) The mystery of predestination is one of the greatest mysteries of the goodness and love of God!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42474657679268239492011-11-25T08:33:00.118-08:002011-11-25T08:33:00.118-08:00The following comment is from Derek Caudill ... at...The following comment is from Derek Caudill ... at his request it has been edited slightly (and hence I am posting it) ... it is from about 3 days ago.<br /><br />----------------------------------<br /><br />Thomists have the problem of explaining the following:<br /><br />There is some division in the idea of grace between "sufficient" and "efficacious" grace. Gratia sufficiens, "sufficient" grace, is potentiality, and gratia efficax, efficacious grace (the grace which actually works), is the actuality or activation of that potentiality, which can come from God's activity alone. In a word, you can't and won't "use" your "grace" unless God makes you do it (but you are somehow still free while he's making you). So, sufficient grace must be moved by efficacious (the further grace from God) in order to result in holiness and salvation. <br /><br />But here's a sad part of it: God doesn't give this help to everyone, but only to his few elect, whom he decided before creation for no further explicable reason than his will. <br /><br />Now it's obvious that "sufficient" grace is really not sufficient, though they call it that. I have yet to figure out what they mean it's sufficient for if not salvation. By my lights, in effect they're saying something more like it's sufficient for condemnation. <br /><br />See, God's leaving (he leaves them and forsakes them forever) the "reprobate" with "sufficient" grace alone infallibly results in their persistent sinning and then damnation, because it's not enough in itself for better living and salvation. <br /><br />As anyone can see, this puts the blood of the tortured damned on God's hands, because he could easily give everyone efficacious grace if he wanted, but just chooses not to for his own reasons.<br /><br />It seems that the least of us miserable men can conceive of a God of stronger love; indeed, a corrupt neighbor of ours with stronger love. Then, what becomes of our religion?<br /><br />What else would God mean to happen when he "non-elects" someone than that they should burn in hell? Surely he can see that would happen, and understand his own role in it.<br /><br />If either heaven or hell, and not-heaven, then hell! I think God is at least that smart. But can we really slander the Father we've been shown in Christ's face by saying he acts like this?<br /><br />I don't know how we are to explain predestination; but if we try to, I know we at least have to preserve the goodness of God. And Thomism fails badly in this by everyone's definition of goodness, so then they have to tell us our hearts are wrong. Well, I'm sorry, but my heart is all I've got to go by, and all I've got to give to God, and I say they're wrong.<br /><br />God wills all men to be saved. If I didn't believe this is clear in Christianity, I'd find a better religion.<br /><br />In Christ,<br />Derek<br /><br />----------------------------Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-83784957066373090232011-11-21T12:12:08.414-08:002011-11-21T12:12:08.414-08:00Vince K,
It would seem to me that your intuition i...Vince K,<br />It would seem to me that your intuition is correct -- for some people, more grace would be needed than for others.<br />Hence, I would think that "sufficient" grace would differ from person to person.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48711838309764167502011-11-21T07:34:12.029-08:002011-11-21T07:34:12.029-08:00Father,
My friends and I were discussing this yes...Father,<br /><br />My friends and I were discussing this yesterday and we wondered: Is it true that the amount of sufficiency varies depending on the person? That is, do some people need more love (or grace) to have enough to be able to get to heaven or is the level of sufficiency the same for each person? <br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />Vince KVince Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47628244090276085192011-11-17T06:11:06.704-08:002011-11-17T06:11:06.704-08:00Zevlag,
Great question!
As with all the saints in ...Zevlag,<br />Great question!<br />As with all the saints in heaven, our Lady can no longer grow in charity.<br />Yet, I should think that her love for us becomes more specified toward us and also more realized within us as we grow in holiness. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47850006413947536292011-11-16T22:09:59.757-08:002011-11-16T22:09:59.757-08:00Fr.,
Since God's love for us is at a certain l...Fr.,<br />Since God's love for us is at a certain level and does not change, perhaps what changes is our fidelity and how pleasing we become to Our Lord, my question is....Does the love of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is a creature, change? Can she grow in love of usZevlagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48358581408890238202011-11-16T08:52:55.767-08:002011-11-16T08:52:55.767-08:00Dear Father and Rick;
I have enjoyed this descussi...Dear Father and Rick;<br />I have enjoyed this descussion too. It has benefited my vigor to live for Christ ever much more.<br /> I would like to give another quote from St. Therese's Story of a Soul in order to respond to Rick's last comment:<br /> "I told you once how it puzzled me that God did not give everyone the same amount of glory in Heaven, and I feared they could not all be happy. You sent me off to fetch one of Father's big glasses and made me put my little thimble by the side of it; then you filled them both up with water and asked me which I thought was fuller. I had to admit that one was just as full as the other because neither of them would hold anymore. <br />That was the way you helped me grasp how it was that in Heaven the least have no cause to envy the greatest."<br /><br />Rick, if a little soul could only hold one drop of love from God it is sufficient to satisfy that soul forever. I do not believe little souls who are loved by God a little have any jealousy about not having more talents, whether they are here on earth or in heaven. Instead they are humbled and pleased to do for Him as He pleases with the little they have. They praise God for the wonderful wisdom he has for giving them what they can handle and giving others more for what they can handle. Without the variety of us, the beautiful rhythm of God's family would not shine. <br />Some of us require more harshness from God to get our act in gear. Some need more consolations. Some are so fragile they need a different treatment from Him. I think it is fascinating how we can be treated in so various ways by God and still feel we are loved immensely by Him, as if we are the only one with Him in the world...when it may be only a drop of Heavenly love! To us, if He filled us with the greatest amount, I am afraid we would crack our "wine skins"! He is so grand! And who is to say that by working with Him He does not multiply the talent (love) within us to overflowing?! Drop by drop. "Let my cup overflow."<br /><br />I think those who complain are those spoiled ones who want more but do nothing to humble themselves. They are so busy comparing the outside of others to their inside. They never look into the mirror and see themselves as God sees them, their good qualities and their bad. Accepting the love of God when you are certain of your faults is hard because it requires change. Second, they do not know His love. If they have encountered His love, they wouldn't think such things. For His love is transforming and alive. It has a virtuous life of its own that fills the soul both day and night with joy and peace and a sense that there is always something little to to for God iwth love. There is no time for jealousy. Who can be jealous when God give them all they need every day, for that day?<br />SueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-34344908770065763982011-11-16T03:23:26.063-08:002011-11-16T03:23:26.063-08:00Dear Father Ryan,
I have to say, this has been on...Dear Father Ryan,<br /><br />I have to say, this has been one of the best reads I've ever done. Not only your article, but the discussion as well.<br /><br />I have to say also the comments by "A Sinner" and "Sue" are most appreciated.<br /><br />Now finally my question:<br /><br />Being loved more implies that more will be demanded, or expected.<br />Those who are loved more, don't have a reason to complain about the premise of "God loves ones more than others".<br />Therefore, those complaining would be the ones who would be loved "just one talent, maybe two".<br />Yet, God could say: what are you complaining about... anyway, if you return one (or two for that matter) talent(s), you will get the same reward as that one who returned five [heaven]. So you're complaining about not being asked more from.<br />This leads my thought to "Are you willing to drink the same cup..."<br />Can you comment on this? Don't know if I'm making myself clear, just tying up some loose thoughts...<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />RickRicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26720283965657128402011-11-15T21:36:54.335-08:002011-11-15T21:36:54.335-08:00Sue,
I'm not sure which dogma book you are usi...Sue,<br />I'm not sure which dogma book you are using, perhaps it is that by Ludwig Ott.<br /><br />In any case, it is very good!<br />Indeed, God does desire the salvation of all (and not only the predestined).<br /><br />How great the love of God! For he has called us into being and (for those who are being save) he has called us into new life in Christ his Son! <br />Peace to you in Christ our Savior. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-27855639608268266752011-11-15T17:12:57.130-08:002011-11-15T17:12:57.130-08:00Father; You have challenged me. I like that. My Do...Father; You have challenged me. I like that. My Dogma book says this and I hope this can be shared with everyone:<br />De fide. "God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness." Read Romans 8:29 But no one knows who is unless revealed by special Revelation if they are predestined. <br /><br />Also I found these:<br /> Despite men's sins God truly and earnestly desires the salvation of all men. (Sent. Fidei proxima.) It explains further: "That God desires the salvation, not only of the predestined, but at least of all the faithful, is formally defined. The Church has rejected as heretical the limitation of the Divine Will for salvation to the predestined by the Predestinatians, the Calvanists, and the Jansenists...the Divine Will of salvation embraces at least all the faithful, as is evident from the official profession of faith of the Church, in which the faithful pray: qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de coelis....Jesus shows in his lament for Jerusalem that He desires the salvation of those also, who sin (Mt 23:37; Lk 19:41). It is evident from John 3:16 that God desires the salvation of all the faithful, at least; for He gave His Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him may not perish." In 1 TImothy 2:4 we read that the Divine will for salvation embraces all men without exception: "He (God) will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."<br /><br />Also a dogma:<br />"God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments." (De fide.)<br /><br />And "God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion." (Sent. communis.)<br /><br />And "God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation." (Sent. certa.)<br /><br />Its a true mystery I happily submit to. And means I must submit to God and work hard in with "hope" to enjoy eternity with God. <br />SueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61685179736588920622011-11-15T15:33:33.217-08:002011-11-15T15:33:33.217-08:00@Sue,
Very close ... but while we must say that Go...@Sue,<br />Very close ... but while we must say that God loves all and that he wills all to be saved ... we do not say that all are predestined.<br /><br />Anyone who is predestined will certainly be saved ... thus, it does not seem that every human is predestined (since it is likely that not all people go to heaven).<br /><br />But you are right, we send ourselves to hell - i.e. by our sins we incur the wrath of God and turn away from heaven.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-81873821207096919272011-11-15T15:21:48.840-08:002011-11-15T15:21:48.840-08:00Father;
What an interesting thread!
Therefore, we ...Father;<br />What an interesting thread!<br />Therefore, we (human souls) are all predestined to be with God in Heaven for eternity. BUT not everyone cooperates with His grace to enter Heaven. This is because of free will. Free will was given to humans so we could enter into the Love of God and enjoy eternity with Him freely or to decide not to. As far as Mary is concerned, her choice was given when Gabriel came to her. Unlike Eve, Mary did say Yes to following God's will. I do not know if anyone knows this, but Eve was in Sanctifying grace too, yet she said No to following God and choose evil instead. mary did choose, God gave her the same free will as Eve. That is why Mary is called the New Eve.<br /> Is it right that we say that God "wills" evil only in so far as He permitted free will. Obviously He does not want evil, for GOd is all good and loving, there is no bad in Him. At the fall of Adam and Eve He even foretold how His Son would come. Christ came to suffer and make suffering redemptive so as to make the path to follow grace available to us all. All the evil in the world is a consequence of sin through our free will. Without Christ we wouldn't be able to conquer and rise above suffering of all kinds. For He gives us GRACE! If He predestines all souls to go to Heaven, than He would provide sufficient opportunities and grace for each individual in order for them to get there, BUT the individual MUST cooperate in order to follow Him. We actually predestine ourselves to hell. God sends no one there, we choose it.<br /><br />Keep up the good work Father!<br />And yes, Therese believes God wants everyone in Heaven, but she also knows not all go. <br />SueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-65360319505814338462011-11-15T14:50:53.115-08:002011-11-15T14:50:53.115-08:00@Sue,
For the Catholic, "predestination"...@Sue,<br />For the Catholic, "predestination" means God's providence insofar as he directs us (and moves us) to heaven.<br /><br />In this respect it is very different from Calvinist "double-predestination", since that includes the idea that God actively directs (and moves) someone to sin and ultimately to hell.<br /><br /><br />We must believe in predestination in the Catholic sense (since St. Paul explicitly teaches it) ... we always affirm that heaven is gain through our cooperation with God's predestination ... we are free in this plan ... not all are predestined (at least not Satan and his angels, and any humans who are in hell or will go to hell) ... anyone who is predestined will make it to heaven (predestination is certain).<br /><br />I know it is hard to understand ... this is why St. Therese is so good! She helps us to remember that predestination and all the rest is part of God's LOVE! <br /><br />And that love drives out all fear. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78644714583916966192011-11-15T14:46:48.025-08:002011-11-15T14:46:48.025-08:00Kuba,
I think you got it right!
I would add that w...Kuba,<br />I think you got it right!<br />I would add that we all have many little "extras", though some more than others -- and in this way, they are loved more.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-89460326504596050992011-11-15T14:37:40.776-08:002011-11-15T14:37:40.776-08:00@filiusdextris,
I'm not sure how you can say I...@filiusdextris,<br />I'm not sure how you can say I haven't cited sources ... the whole article was written based on the commentary of Fr. Cornelius a' Lapide (I said this in the article and in the earlier comments).<br />Further, I cited St. Thomas explicitly several times in the comments and once in the article.<br /><br />As to whether my sources say what I claim they say ... St. Thomas says that one is predestined and another reprobate after the manner that one piece of matter is made a rock and another a tree ... I would say that I have not gone nearly so far as my sources!<br /><br />The problem with thinking that God loves some more because they cooprerate is that it makes God's love depend upon our actions -- and that would be terrible, since without God's love we could do nothing (i.e. if God didn't love us, we wouldn't even be able to cooperate).<br />In the order of causes, God's love comes before any human cooperation ... nothing, absolutely nothing, causes God's love.<br /><br />If you want a witness to this from the tradition, consider the final homily of St. Augustine in his commentary on John ... he says that Peter loves Jesus more, but that John is loved more by Jesus ... Peter is greater in his love, but Jesus still loves John more -- why? Because it is His gracious will that John should be loved more.<br /><br />And be very careful about calling God's prerogative "whimsical" -- his will and his love is the foundation of all logic and reason and order.<br />Hence, there is no law against which we measure God's love ... there is no ruler by which we can judge whether God has loved enough or too much ... rather, God's love establishes all law and all measurement.<br />And the Doctors (especially St. Thomas) claim that God loves some more than others.<br /><br />And when it comes to questions on grace, we should listen especially to the Doctor of Grace (St. Augustine) -- take a look at that homily ... you will be surprised at how far Augustine goes (much further than I have in this little article)! (see especially parabraph 4; then the spiritual interpretation given in 5-7) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701124.htm<br /><br />There is no question, according to St. Augustine, Jesus loves St. John more than St. Peter, even though St. Peter loves Jesus more than does St. John.<br /><br />[and how clear the divine election is in the case of our Lady, who was chosen through no merit of her own, and has been loved more than all others]<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15637888643695668122011-11-15T13:39:11.196-08:002011-11-15T13:39:11.196-08:00Father,
i have to say this is the most challenging...Father,<br />i have to say this is the most challenging post i read so far. <br /><br />I guess it'd be easier to establish some sort of "base line" i.e there is some "level" of God's love that we all get. <br /><br />-He loved us all into existence (true for all)<br />-He loved us so he gave His Only Son to die for us (true for all)<br />-He loves/desires for me to be saved (true for all)<br /><br />With respect to the above we are all equally loved, i.e. the above statements are true for all (correct me if i am wrong)<br /><br />So no one can claim any shortage of God's love in that respect.<br /><br />If i read you post in this way i can understand that any "extras" are only for some.Kubahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13318101874688443994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-41897019296925927562011-11-15T12:28:07.006-08:002011-11-15T12:28:07.006-08:00"In any case, would you cite a source from th..."In any case, would you cite a source from the Tradition which would make us think that God loves all equally? I have cited many."<br /><br />That was not my point of contention. You have not cited sources to show from what the love was borne of...it could have been fundamental, even whimsical if you will (God's prerogative), or it could have been as a response from the believer as the believer's will aligns with the Father's. You seem to believe it is the first, and I have not rejected that. I've merely said the second will also plausibly explain the facts that some have more graces than others and your sources don't seem to prove why one way or the other.filiusdextrisnoreply@blogger.com