tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post5180287576862808261..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: What confused Mary about the AnnunciationFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-16683820812233869932011-03-26T22:42:06.705-07:002011-03-26T22:42:06.705-07:00@Nick,
Thanks for the additional information and t...@Nick,<br />Thanks for the additional information and the Greek references. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-53860627974452671572011-03-26T16:31:01.384-07:002011-03-26T16:31:01.384-07:00I looked this up on a Greek search tool and I thin...I looked this up on a Greek search tool and I think it confirms this (unless I'm misunderstanding the Greek): <br />http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=1&v=34&t=KJV#conc/34<br /><br />"How shall this BE (future tense), since I KNOW (present tense) not a man?" <br /><br />In other words, the Greek verb tense confirms Mary was well aware this was a FUTURE event, but she responds by saying She CURRENTLY does not know a man. The response is nonsense if She currently didn't know man but in the future intended to. Saying you are currently abstaining is non-sequitor to a question of future relations, thus only a perpetual vow of Virginity makes sense.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47829110589865082742011-03-24T15:16:57.317-07:002011-03-24T15:16:57.317-07:00Rich,
I agree...once again the NAB is found to be ...Rich,<br />I agree...once again the NAB is found to be quite lacking...<br />The Douay-Rheims (which I prefer, and which I always use in my articles [after first citing the NAB]) renders Mary's words with "shall".<br />The Greek is indicative future of "to be"...hence, "How shall this be?" is the proper translation (as you point out).<br /><br />Peace.+Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-25306669255733764462011-03-24T15:02:06.023-07:002011-03-24T15:02:06.023-07:00A good translation would avoid some of this confus...A good translation would avoid some of this confusion as the "How can" should be "How shall". 'can' implies doubt, 'shall' implies a future event that will take place. For those who doubt a vow of chastity was in place by both , read Ez 44:1 & 2, and tell me how Joseph would have interpreted this passage? Rich in Costa MesaRich in Costa Mesanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47828967438784613262011-03-24T04:47:30.458-07:002011-03-24T04:47:30.458-07:00The tradition Tomas refers to is found in written ...The tradition Tomas refers to is found in written form in the Gospel of James, an apocryphal work.<br /><br />It tells us Mary was consecrated in the Temple at the age of three and lived there for many years. As there was no legal/religious provision at the time for perpetual virginity, when she came of age the Temple guardians had to find her a husband. But they all knew her sanctity and didn't want to give her over to the premier venu. So they organized a kind of contest between prospective grooms. Each of these had a dry stick in his hand. St. Joseph's stick let forth leaves and flowers, and that is why our sacred images often show him with a flowering branch in his hand. Joseph was an older man.<br /><br />It is well to remark that, although this narrative is a part of an apocryphal work, it was also an oral tradition in the primitive Church and is taken for granted in the East, which still celebrates Mary's consecration as a servant of the Temple.<br /><br />As for the rest of Reginaldus' post, it is quite logical that Our Lady and St. Joseph took a mutual vow of virginity when they were married. She was struck by the Angel's assertion that she would be a mother, just as he was struck when he found out she was pregnant.<br /><br />Peace to all,<br /><br />Marcelo - BrazilMarcelo C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-54144648977842318292011-03-23T21:20:23.245-07:002011-03-23T21:20:23.245-07:00@Tomas,
I do not know about whether Mary was a ser...@Tomas,<br />I do not know about whether Mary was a servant of the temple...there is a tradition that she was related on her mother's side to the Levites (priests).<br /><br />Yes, there is also a tradition that Joseph was older. In the East, this has always been popular.<br />In the West, we have usually maintained that Joseph was a young man who also vowed virginity (having never married before) -- but there have been some western saints (St. Bridgit) who thought Joseph was older.<br />Certainly, there is room for speculation.<br /><br />Thanks for the additional points of reflection! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69157878712674364282011-03-23T21:17:24.004-07:002011-03-23T21:17:24.004-07:00@Pax Vobis,
As in the article: If Mary had not mad...@Pax Vobis,<br />As in the article: If Mary had not made a vow of virginity, but was instead planning on having relations with St. Joseph; then she would not have been confused by the Angel's message, but would have presumed that Christ would be the son of Joseph.<br /><br />Hence, because Mary is confused, it is clear that she had vowed virginity.<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4089189236676227912011-03-23T17:37:18.305-07:002011-03-23T17:37:18.305-07:00Anonymous,
here's the link to the section of ...Anonymous,<br /><br />here's the link to the section of St. Thomas' <i>Summa</i> which Fr. Reginaldus quotes at the bottom of the article as being his source:<br /><br />http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4028.htm<br /><br />Of course, St. Thomas' source was Sacred Tradition, transmitted through the writings of the Church Fathers, again as Fr. Reginaldus makes clear at the bottom of the article.<br /><br />I would suggest this is a fine example of what my great hero, Bl. John Henry Newman, called a 'development of Christian doctrine'. The Bible gives us hints of it, but this teaching grows into its full stature over the course of time as the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit towards the Truth, meditates more deeply upon the mystery.Chattohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488939389859451887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-57775194711205987192011-03-23T14:49:31.195-07:002011-03-23T14:49:31.195-07:00"but because she has no intention of ever hav..."but because she has no intention of ever having relations with (i.e. knowing) any man"<br /><br />Whilst we can certainly see how Mary's response suggests that she has previously not known any man, on what basis can we conclude that her intention was to maintain her virginity?<br /><br />Many thanks in advance for any help or clarification you can offer.Pax Vobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844686902393150830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-34728184873413430842011-03-23T14:47:43.406-07:002011-03-23T14:47:43.406-07:00"but because she has no intention of ever hav..."but because she has no intention of ever having relations with (i.e. knowing) any man"<br /><br />Whilst we can certainly see how Mary's response suggets that she has previously not known any man, on what basis can we conclude that her intention was to maintain her virginity?<br /><br />Many thanks in advance for any help or clarification you can offer.Pax Vobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844686902393150830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40432418722309778812011-03-23T14:00:29.745-07:002011-03-23T14:00:29.745-07:00Just as Eve was confused by the serpent and consen...Just as Eve was confused by the serpent and consented, so Mary was confused by the angel and consented.<br /><br />Eva; AveDismasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-82407005067983071532011-03-23T13:01:27.424-07:002011-03-23T13:01:27.424-07:00Reginaldus,
I have heard that there is a traditio...Reginaldus,<br /><br />I have heard that there is a tradition that Mary may have been a servant of the temple and consecrated a virgin from a young age. She was married to Joseph, by this tradition a much older man, because he had no plans to conceive (further) children, and thus could be expected to respect the virginity of this past servant of the temple.<br /><br />It would still fit with most everything you've said.<br /><br />Can you comment on this if you have heard of it? I believe the details are drawn from an apocryphal work.<br /><br />TomasTomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871814767313979455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-76422027000304109382011-03-23T12:39:47.289-07:002011-03-23T12:39:47.289-07:00MF,
We can deduce that Mary and Joseph made the vo...MF,<br />We can deduce that Mary and Joseph made the vow of virginity together:<br />1) Joseph certainly must have known that Mary wanted to remain a virgin (how could she marry him without telling him this?)<br />2) Yet, if his wife (the Virgin) had taken the vow, then Joseph too was consecrating himself to perpetual chaste continence in his union to the Mother of God.<br /><br />I hope that helps! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-62040112141296495462011-03-23T11:43:05.521-07:002011-03-23T11:43:05.521-07:00Thank you for this meditation: the moe I understan...Thank you for this meditation: the moe I understand the Blessed Mother, the more I realize, as a man and a farther how much Joseph must have TRULY loved her, from afar so to speak- in the purest of ways; What a great spouse he was and what a marvelous example to all us men. Furthermore, Mary accepted his proposal of marriage and she would recognize goodness manifested in a man.gedda fanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11934506306702772703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13766928286260797952011-03-23T11:28:13.354-07:002011-03-23T11:28:13.354-07:00Is this in the bible, or where?
"After Mary w...Is this in the bible, or where?<br />"After Mary was betrothed to St. Joseph, but before the marriage ceremony (and before the Annunciation), she approached the Just Man and revealed to him the desire of her heart-to make a vow of virginity"... <br /><br />M.F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com