tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post5331218185606746780..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: The real meaning of "noon", How the ancient Jews (and medieval Christian monks) continue to influence modern societyFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29788817362158137922012-11-17T12:43:48.782-08:002012-11-17T12:43:48.782-08:00"Here, as bad as modern society may sometimes..."Here, as bad as modern society may sometimes seem, it is encouraging for Christians to remember that the biblical influence on modern western society is so deep that the only way to remove the Judeo-Christian roots would be to utterly destroy Western Civilization. We can only hope that the secularists will recognize this truth." I am afraid they have recognized this...Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01272898066795531797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26290038242062828422011-09-18T18:19:42.510-07:002011-09-18T18:19:42.510-07:00Now *that's* what I call a cool, interesting, ...Now *that's* what I call a cool, interesting, useful, and edifying bit of Catholic blogging!Rick DeLanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06675522207482535734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22901307141979630062011-09-18T12:38:48.270-07:002011-09-18T12:38:48.270-07:00My contribution to restoring none is that when I f...My contribution to restoring none is that when I fast (every day except Sundays and feast days from the Exaltation of the Cross till Easter Sunday) I don't break my fast till after I pray vespers around 4-5pm. I do have a cup of black coffee in the morning though except Fridays.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69302958842190803102011-09-17T16:34:17.125-07:002011-09-17T16:34:17.125-07:00Following up on Gregory's comment, in medieval...Following up on Gregory's comment, in medieval England it was common to pray several offices together one after the other, because of this shortened day time in late Fall through early Spring, putting together Matins-Lauds-Prime and Vespers-Compline. When Cranmer crafted Morning Prayer (Mattins) and Evening Prayer (Evensong) as a combination of the morning and evening offices for the Book of Common Prayer, he was not creating this out of his own head, but institutionalizing a then-common practice.Steve Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021781365974293126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36864190710770254892011-09-17T11:06:10.787-07:002011-09-17T11:06:10.787-07:00Gregory,
Thanks for the info!
Most especially, tha...Gregory,<br />Thanks for the info!<br />Most especially, thank you for pointing out the connection between sext and siesta!<br /><br />Are you still in Rome these days? <br />It was my time spent over at S. Gregorio dei Muratori that first got me interested in the ancient traditions!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-12572358171023382942011-09-17T10:57:32.821-07:002011-09-17T10:57:32.821-07:00Fr. Ryan, I would add that part of the reason for ...Fr. Ryan, I would add that part of the reason for the shift in the English language also has to do with the change in latitude. London is just shy of 20 degrees further north than Jerusalem; at the winter solstice, sunrise is at 8 a.m., and there are fewer than 8 hours of daylight. England also had a very much larger proportion of cathedrals run by monks than any other country; at the end of the solar year, they could not hope to cram the whole of the much longer monastic office into such a short period. Rome, on the other hand, is only 10 degrees further north, and the ecclesiastical equivalent to "noon" is Sext, i.e. Siesta (a custom which I hope you don't miss too much!) Best regards!Gregory DiPippohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00654347284964980239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8732556617246832002011-09-17T09:04:32.487-07:002011-09-17T09:04:32.487-07:00@Jim Hicks and SDG,
There is no "zero hour&qu...@Jim Hicks and SDG,<br />There is no "zero hour" in the Jewish method of telling time ... hence, the "first hour" begins at sunrise.<br /><br />Today, sunrise in Jerusalem was at 6:24am.<br />Throughout the entire month of June, sunrise was around 5:35am -- hence, the "first hour" began at 5:35am.<br />The latest sunrise ever is in Jerusalem is about 6:40am ... thus, the latest the "first hour" ever started for the Jews in Jerusalem was 6:40am.<br /><br />So, if one were to make a table to relate the "hours" of the Jewish day to modern time, the "first hour" would begin somewhere between 5:30am and 6:40am (depending on the time of the year) ... don't you think 6am is a good in-between? Certainly, 7am wouldn't be right.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10016833233054708802011-09-17T08:28:24.396-07:002011-09-17T08:28:24.396-07:00Thanks, this helped me I think. I recently starte...Thanks, this helped me I think. I recently started saying prime, sext and compline, (little hours?) but the lovely little divine office book I bought says prime is at full sunrise. That's not 6 am any more here. It's too much fun for me to try saying them in the Latin. Gloria Patri! <br />perriAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87485076068738794872011-09-17T04:21:19.560-07:002011-09-17T04:21:19.560-07:00Thanks, Father!Thanks, Father!Fr Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56377241443353312042011-09-17T03:05:08.602-07:002011-09-17T03:05:08.602-07:00Really enjoyed this post. But I agree with SDG. ...Really enjoyed this post. But I agree with SDG. I have always heard Prime referred to as 7am.<br /><br />Jim HicksJim Hicksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69484400890110128472011-09-16T22:31:46.549-07:002011-09-16T22:31:46.549-07:00I knew there was something about 3 o'clock tha...I knew there was something about 3 o'clock that made me feel shlep-ish! The jews understood the same feeling exactly!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38174237142832135022011-09-16T12:24:20.975-07:002011-09-16T12:24:20.975-07:00Excellent. Thanks for this informative post.Excellent. Thanks for this informative post.Msgr. Popehttp://blog.adw.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75622951578965740572011-09-16T10:44:51.928-07:002011-09-16T10:44:51.928-07:00Great post father, I have a question though, What ...Great post father, I have a question though, What times are the Lauds, Vespers and Compline suppose to be prayed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8225075439526091872011-09-16T10:14:04.138-07:002011-09-16T10:14:04.138-07:00SDG,
In fact, the matter is a bit more complicated...SDG,<br />In fact, the matter is a bit more complicated ... the "first hour" of the Jewish day was from dawn to about 8am -- but this all depended upon when dawn was.<br />Hence, in the Summer months (when the day was longer), the first hour could be even earlier than 6am. However, in the Winter months (when the night was longer), the first hour would begin much later.<br /><br />In other words, my chart isn't really an exact correlation between modern and ancient time-tables ... rather, it is only a rough approximation.<br />The "first hour" roughly begins at 6am, but truly begin at dawn.<br /><br />[additionally, it is interesting to note that the "hours" of the Jewish method do not necessarily equal 60 minutes ... they are simply 12 equal divisions of the day-time]<br /><br />It is true, however, that "Prime" (the first hour of the Breviary) was often prayed around 7am ... though even here there is no little diversity from monastery to monastery.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47283822402601535352011-09-16T09:03:24.838-07:002011-09-16T09:03:24.838-07:00Good post. Those hungry monks have truly shaped ou...Good post. Those hungry monks have truly shaped our English language.<br />I pray too that secularists, and others, who tamper with English for their own political agendas will see the error of the ways. But it sometimes seems like an uphill battle.jeremyschwagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13666706571841510758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-76916488881551560622011-09-16T09:01:12.051-07:002011-09-16T09:01:12.051-07:00Cool.Cool.Chattohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488939389859451887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-12890157879520509112011-09-16T08:21:40.456-07:002011-09-16T08:21:40.456-07:00Nice article. Just one quibble regarding your tabl...Nice article. Just one quibble regarding your table: Everything works except the first row, "6am = first hour." Where all the other hours are as specified, the "first hour" would be 7am, not 6am.SDGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375984400426599393noreply@blogger.com