tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post5656920665002272644..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Four reasons why the Bread of Life Discourse cannot be a metaphorFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87659699260923062122017-07-26T19:37:06.088-07:002017-07-26T19:37:06.088-07:00If Protestants are so sure that Jesus was talking ...If Protestants are so sure that Jesus was talking symbolically, why don't they cite anybody prior to the Reformation that taught what Protestants believe about the Eucharist?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12395126009863465693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38560436787600422412011-08-09T07:33:21.904-07:002011-08-09T07:33:21.904-07:00While waiting for today's morning mass I have ...While waiting for today's morning mass I have realized that I haven't really responded to your question.<br />Let me first say: We are not being blessed by God because we are good. We are good because God is blessing us.<br />We cannot save ourselves. Membership does not save us. Even knowledge does not save us (satan knows Jesus, and knows scripture which he proved it.)<br />So why are we receiving Body and Blood of Christ?<br />Not to save ourselves. We are doing it out of Love for Him.<br />Why are we doing it then?<br />To be transformed through all Sacraments to die to ourselves so Christ can live in us.<br />Why? Because we don't know how to love others. But Christ knows.<br />So we, out of Love for Him, die to ourselves, and receive His Body and Blood, so He could live in us, and Love others through us.<br />That is the reason for confession as well. We are going there not to feel good about ourselves. We go for help - to restore broken relationship with God, and to know how we are obstructing Jesus in His Love.<br />The best example is to see all the missions, hospitals and schools - lives of Saints. The fruit is not ours. The fruit is God's who worked through those who decided really be His hands.<br />I was writing about justification before. You cannot, as a Protestant, go and receive His Body and Blood without having faith in it. If you do you will be idolater. Also Catholics who do not believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist are idolaters and they are not justified.<br />How can you test (not to ask you to do any tests) if someone is really having faith in His Presence?<br />Contest his/her belief in an outright and uncomfortable way.<br />If he/she backs off, the works (or rather lack of thereof) through not defending his/her faith will show that his/her faith is dead.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Greg.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91848059216013101712011-08-09T04:47:08.393-07:002011-08-09T04:47:08.393-07:00Dear Brian:
I understand your questioning and I w...Dear Brian:<br /><br />I understand your questioning and I was wondering about it too. Adam and Eve was also questioning it after satan told them "You certainly will not die!" There is life and there is life. When you eat His Body and drink His Cup you *do* have Life within you for Jesus is Life!<br />That rquires *faith* though. We are not 'saved' by receiving Body and Blood of Christ when we do not believe in His presence in the Sacrament. It requires *faith* which is needed for justification. The same as with the confession - we are not forgiven because we confess (for God knows very well what we have done without us telling Him about it.) We are forgiven when we confess and repent for repentance proves our *faith*!<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Greg.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40072731911076152752011-08-05T20:22:05.248-07:002011-08-05T20:22:05.248-07:00Yes, that's it exactly.Yes, that's it exactly.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594604529584155042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-33849311090590984882011-08-05T19:34:02.044-07:002011-08-05T19:34:02.044-07:00Michelle,
Very good! And, just to make it clear (a...Michelle,<br />Very good! And, just to make it clear (and please do correct me if I am misunderstanding your point) -- John 3:36 tells us that we must obey and believe in the Son of God when he tells us "This is my Body", "This is the cup of my Blood".<br />Peace and blessings to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70635898313144544792011-08-05T18:58:45.528-07:002011-08-05T18:58:45.528-07:00Actually the context begins a little further back,...Actually the context begins a little further back, John 3:31-36 which is titled in my bible "He who comes from Heaven." Compare 3:34 with 6:68-69 which are "bookends". I suggest you meditate especially on John 3:36. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests on him." This little paragraph is the key. <br />Father, your Son is above all. Amen.<br /><b>God is True</b><br />Peace in ChristMichellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594604529584155042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-43551254054043502872011-08-05T17:26:51.329-07:002011-08-05T17:26:51.329-07:00Brian,
Twice now you have refused to respond to th...Brian,<br />Twice now you have refused to respond to the points of my article.<br />If you want to discuss vv 25-58, start your own blog and write a post [and, if your thoughts are of any worth, perhaps a Catholic will come and debate with you there].<br /><br />In the meantime, please do not comment unless you plan on first answering the 4 points I made in the original article ... esp. the second point about the Biblical METAPHOR of "eating another's flesh" meaning to reject, hate, destroy another.<br /><br />It is this type of refusal to discuss the particular points of the debate which I call "wiggling and fidgeting".Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-17804317882842766602011-08-03T19:47:48.425-07:002011-08-03T19:47:48.425-07:00Why did you avoid the context?? Verses 25-58? I ...Why did you avoid the context?? Verses 25-58? I know of no Protestants that “wiggle and fidget as they come to the bread of life discourse.” Of course, Protestants understand where the discourse begins.Brian Cullitonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01982233666293114233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-43433938965158227692011-08-03T10:39:40.744-07:002011-08-03T10:39:40.744-07:00Brian,
You have failed to address the central cla...Brian, <br />You have failed to address the central claim of my article:<br />The Biblical metaphor of "eating flesh" means to reject, destroy, undermine, or kill.<br />It is never used, metaphorically, to mean "believe in me" ... but always has a negative connotation.<br /><br />Hence, either you think that Jesus is telling us to destroy/hate/reject him, or you think that Jesus did not know the Bible well and was misusing this common metaphor.<br /><br />The Catholic faith, on the other hand, recognizes that it is not a metaphor ... indeed, unless a man has at least the implicit desire to receive the Eucharist (implicit, i.e. he may not even recognize this desire or be able to express it in words), that man cannot be saved.<br />This is the belief at least of the Catholic Church -- and I am quite certain that the Orthodox hold it as well.<br /><br />[remember, our Savior even challenged his Apostles with this message; so he wasn't simply trying to scandalize the Jewish authorities (as you would have it)]Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78052890120882053692011-08-03T10:07:20.874-07:002011-08-03T10:07:20.874-07:00Jesus said, “Except you eat the flesh of the Son o...Jesus said, “Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” Since the Catholic Church teaches that this is to be interpreted literally, then Catholics ought to believe that salvation cannot exist for anyone that does not receive communion in a Catholic or Orthodox mass. But that is not what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation. So how can you interpret this literally? If you compare this to Catholic doctrine there can only be two possibilities: either Jesus wasn’t telling the truth, or He was speaking metaphorically.<br /><br />The “obvious” answer is that He was speaking metaphorically, because, indecently, the bread of life discourse does not begin at verse 51, it begins at verse 25. And if you read the entire discourse you will find that He clearly stated His message without the metaphor no less than seven times. <br /><br />“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (v29)<br /><br />“I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.” (v35)<br /><br />“All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.” (v37)<br /><br />“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.” (v39)<br /><br />“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (v40) <br /><br />“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (v44)<br /><br />“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.” (v47)<br /><br />After all that, the Jews and unbelieving disciples didn’t get it because they couldn’t get it. That is when Jesus purposely offended them by using the metaphor of eating His flesh and drinking His blood. He knew they didn’t believe in Him, and He knew they would be offended and leave, which is what He wanted them to do.Brian Cullitonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01982233666293114233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56092064994713428672011-07-05T08:03:01.247-07:002011-07-05T08:03:01.247-07:00Please, allow me reiterating one fundamental fact....Please, allow me reiterating one fundamental fact. The Eucharist was *before* the Bible. The Catholic Church *did not* find the Eucharist in the Bible through incorrect understanding, and has no need in defending proper interpretation.<br />The *reality* of Eucharist was described in the Bible. If you say that it wasn't explained clearly enough then you say that "this is my Body" is not clear enough. It is not clear enough for you search the Scriptures in seeking eternal life. It is Jesus who is Life. Please read carefuly John 5:39 - "You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf."<br />The Scripture testifies to the Truth. It is your choice where you want to find the Truth - in the Scripture or in Jesus. If you seek Jesus then, please, come Home, for He is here for two thousand of years waiting for your, and humiliating Himself to come to the bread and wine on a call of any priest - even the worst ones. How great His love is for us!<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Greg.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-32606890034475034142011-07-02T20:19:26.335-07:002011-07-02T20:19:26.335-07:00:):)Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594604529584155042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-64063411654458626292011-06-30T16:15:00.740-07:002011-06-30T16:15:00.740-07:00@Michelle and I am not Spartacus (et al.),
Thank y...@Michelle and I am not Spartacus (et al.),<br />Thank you for your comments and your defense of the truth, especially while I was away and unable to respond to comments.<br />Peace to you!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-53884478804056442792011-06-30T16:12:07.080-07:002011-06-30T16:12:07.080-07:00@Anonymous 4:22pm,
I find it quite ironic that you...@Anonymous 4:22pm,<br />I find it quite ironic that you take the prophecy regrading Christ's bones to be certain and true and absolutely literal, but then you take Christ's own words (including the words "flesh indeed" and "drink indeed" and the words, "This is my body" and "This is my blood") to be mere metaphor!<br /><br />In any case, the Church has always believed that the Eucharistic presence is sacramental -- thus the bones of Christ are not broken when we consume the Host. The presence is sacramental, as opposed to the natural presence which he had during his life on earth.<br /><br />You are attacking a straw man ... and even then attack poorly!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87873480342065393522011-06-30T16:04:36.615-07:002011-06-30T16:04:36.615-07:00Regrading the possibility of metaphor:
What strik...Regrading the possibility of metaphor:<br /><br />What strikes me as most interesting is that those arguing in favor of a metaphorical interpretation have completely ignored the second point of the article -- the metaphor "to eat flesh" means to destroy, tear down, reject, and hate.<br />If Jesus means it as a metaphor, we would be forced to think that he wants us to reject him and hate him ...<br /><br />The so-called "Bible-based" protestants have missed this point: The biblical metaphor simply cannot apply to John 6.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29040620870324876432011-06-29T08:47:45.457-07:002011-06-29T08:47:45.457-07:00TO ALL: This weekend I will try to get caught up o...TO ALL: This weekend I will try to get caught up on comments from the week.<br />[I have been away from a computer for the last several days]<br /><br />Thank you for your patience!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71897293933708845632011-06-28T16:58:23.463-07:002011-06-28T16:58:23.463-07:00"So Jesus spirit is definitely within the ent..."So Jesus spirit is definitely within the entire of all creation.So His presence is everywhere!"<br /><br />Yes. But only in the Eucharist is Jesus BODILY present.<br /><br />God bless!Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594604529584155042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-18969370739609926172011-06-28T11:21:20.246-07:002011-06-28T11:21:20.246-07:00The plain and simple truth is that were any protes...The plain and simple truth is that were any protestant to become an expert in New Testament Biblical Exegesis he would cease to be a protestant because to be an expert in New Testament Exegesis would mean that he would become a happy convert to Catholicism and cease to be in opposition to the very Church which wrote the New Testament<br /><br />I know this must read like a bold and boastful claim but, think about it, how could one become a New Testament Biblical Expert and yet remain outside the Catholic Church which alone ('cept for the Orthodox Church) offers the Holy Sacrifice of The New Covenant and Confects the Sacred Banquet of the New Covenant?<br /><br />Now, that does not mean that all Catholics are experts in the New Testament, for that surely is not the case, but it is ineluctable that one can not be considered a New Testament expert if one chooses to remain outside of the Catholic Church Jesus established.<br /><br />He may be highly intelligent; he may be well-educated;he may be well read; but if he remains outside the Catholic Church, by that refusal to join the Catholic Church Jesus established, he is exhibiting severe weaknesses and major faults in his exegetical interpretations of Holy Scripture.<br /><br />I have no doubt that those who oppose the Teaching of Holy Mother Church on The Eucharist are acting out of an honest and sincere motive but they can not possibly think they will convince us that Holy Mother Church, and all of the Saints, and all of the Doctors of the Church, and all of the Popes of the Church, and all of The Early Church Fathers and over 2000+ years of Ecclesiastical Orthopraxis are wrong about the Eucharist and The sixth Chapter of John.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-41111405163017421672011-06-27T20:58:13.321-07:002011-06-27T20:58:13.321-07:00First, The Scripture didn't fell from the sky....First, The Scripture didn't fell from the sky.<br />The Catholic Church does not interpret Eucharist from the Scripture.<br />The Eucharist was before the New Testament. We simply refer to the Scripture as a 'sword' to cut through the hearts of unbelievers.<br />Check the Church Fathers - you should easily find them. St Augustine, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Ignatius of Antioch, etc. You can ask them why they did not get it right...<br /><br />Second. When we die - all of us, Christians, Muslim, Atheists, you name it, we all learn the Truth. We all meet Jesus Christ. And that is what Jesus Christ is telling us that He is the door, the gate, etc... No one will come to the Father except through Him, for He is the Truth. The Truth is not an idea. It is a person.<br /><br />Third. He IS the living water. The water (and blood) that gushed from His side created the Church. The same way as Adam's side was opened and a women has been created from his rib, a woman - Church has been created from the side of Jesus (that is why the priest cannot have a human wife, and has to be a male - he gets married to the Church.) That Church gives us the Word of God that proceeds out of the mouth of God (spiritual food) and Body and Blood of Christ (physical food.)<br /><br />Now, Jesus was telling through parables to create a razor sharp division between those who did not understand but wanted to know, and those who did not care to know or thought they will figure things out on their own. When, after the Bread of Life Discourse, many of His disciples returned to their former way of life (worshiping the way they felt comfortable with,) and no longer accompanied Him (John 6:66) Jesus turned back to the Twelve and instead of telling "wow, I blew it this time big time," He asked - "Do you also want to leave?" As a Teacher He was obligated to stop those leaving him, and explain them that they did not understand Him(, as it is shown in other places in the Scripture.) The Twelve wanted to be with Jesus, did not understand Him, but did not want to guess on their own. Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." (John 6:68)<br /><br />So my question is - do you want to guess what Jesus really meant or you are going to ask the Catholic Church who wrote the Scripture to use it as a 'sword'? It is your choice. You can follow Him or you can go back to your former way of life. But before you leave, please ask yourself "to whom shall you go?"<br /><br />Now, I don't want anyone to go and take the Eucharist because you think all these explanations in this blog sounds 'logical.' If you do that then you will become idolaters worshiping a wafer. We are nobody worth believing. You need to ask the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, to let you know if this is true or not. And wait for the answer. Only when you _know_ it is Jesus you can become Catholics. There is no other way.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Greg.<br /><br />PS. People standing at the foot of the Cross saw just a man there. The eyes of all of us here saw God. Many are seeing a 'wafer' and a 'grape juice'. But every cell of my body _knows_ this is Him. I would not die for a 'wafer'. I would die refusing to tell that this is not His Body and His Blood. For I don't believe in it any more. I know it. AMEN.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75188221838979203742011-06-27T18:44:22.662-07:002011-06-27T18:44:22.662-07:00"Matthew 4:4 “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT L..."Matthew 4:4 “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’<br />There is only ONE Word of God that we must eat for our salvation. It is no mistake that John starts his gospel explaining this to us. Read John 1, then in see John 6, you have God's ONE Word commanding us to eat Him. Your scripture proves the point.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594604529584155042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-53325174629904586262011-06-27T18:41:56.073-07:002011-06-27T18:41:56.073-07:00@Anonymous @Michelle You both are good. Plain and...@Anonymous @Michelle You both are good. Plain and simple.. !!RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13417921656976087828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-73050885743995904472011-06-27T18:30:01.852-07:002011-06-27T18:30:01.852-07:00"Plus, He also stated that He was the door, v..."Plus, He also stated that He was the door, vine, etc. I'm not suppose to take that literally, am I?" Jesus is THE REAL TRUTH that doors and and vines in the material world ARE LIKE. He is not like them, they are like Him. Similiarly, we are MADE in His image, He is THE reality, creation is the reflection. Once you can reach for and grasp this, you will be on The Way. Christ in the Eucharist is the glorified Christ, therefore he cannot be broken or feel pain. This a mystery but still THE TRUTH. The Eucharist makes present SACRAMENTALLY Christ's one true sacrifce. It is a sacrifice because Jesus said "Blood shed for the forgiveness of sins" NOT just His blood but His blood shed for a PURPOSE. That is a sacrifice. Flesh in John 6 means more than just the physical body. It is the whole person, their whole life(see OT) and the blood here means more than just blood, it suggests death. Why? Because of the two forms: the blood is seperate from the body, even though they both contain the whole Christ.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594604529584155042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-24215068120244824982011-06-27T08:18:48.401-07:002011-06-27T08:18:48.401-07:00Name droppers were a "no-no" when I stud...<i>Name droppers were a "no-no" when I studied graduate historiography!!</i><br /><br />That all depends upon the purpose for dropping the name, wouldn't you agree? If you are trying to show the beliefs of early Christians wrt the nature of the eucharist, it would seem silly to ignore what early Christians thought. If you are trying to show how the understanding developed among Christians through different ages, again, silly not to actually look at what Christians said over the ages.<br /><br />If you are just trying to give your own opinion on what you think a particular passage means, then, yes, you are correct. No "name dropping" would be necessary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-54863407375456324892011-06-26T20:28:21.546-07:002011-06-26T20:28:21.546-07:00"The manna was literal food, and the Israelit..."The manna was literal food, and the Israelites literally died, and Jesus contrasts their literal death with the bread-eater's spiritual not-death, so it makes sense that He would, likewise, be contrasting their literal bread with His spiritual bread, or belief, as He has been expounding upon."<br />Literal is not the correct description of the manna. The manna was actual food AND it was supernatural food. The Eucharist is actual food and supernatural food just like the manna, BUT IT IS MORE because it sustains our eternal life (Spirit) not just our physical or temporal life. <br />Are you equating The Spiritual Bread with belief? The Spiritual Bread is Christ. First, belief is obedience, obedience is belief. In order to properly consume the Spiritual Bread, we BELIEVE it is really and substantially Christ that in OBEDIENCE we actually eat. He said it was so and commanded us to do it. It is that simple. This is a matter of "the obedience of faith" as Paul taught: 1 Corinthians 10:16 NRSA "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ ?"Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594604529584155042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47618331613306819292011-06-26T20:04:51.215-07:002011-06-26T20:04:51.215-07:00"The manna was literal food, and the Israelit..."The manna was literal food, and the Israelites literally died, and Jesus contrasts their literal death with the bread-eater's spiritual not-death, so it makes sense that He would, likewise, be contrasting their literal bread with His spiritual bread, or belief, as He has been expounding upon."<br />Literal is incorrect. The manna was actual food AND it was SUPERNATURAL FOOD.<br />Are you equating belief with the Spiritual Bread? Christ is the The Spiritual Bread. Belief is OBEDIENCE. OBEDIENCE is Belief. We "eat" the Spiritual Bread by physically actually eating Christ Himself because He said it was Himself and He commanded us to do it. We must BELIEVE it really and substantially IS Christ that out of OBEDIENCE we are eating It is that simple. The Eucharist JUST LIKE THE MANNA is actual food AND supernatural food. BUT IT IS MORE than the manna because it sustains our eternal life (Spirit) not just our physical life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com