tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post6351879314988939998..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Because water washes, baptism forgives sinsFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-90482619360229352822012-03-01T10:43:18.681-08:002012-03-01T10:43:18.681-08:00@A Rose,
I'm sorry, but your last (attempted) ...@A Rose,<br />I'm sorry, but your last (attempted) comments were almost as long as the original post.<br />[and I have asked that comments be short, less than 100 words]<br /><br />I'm not going to defend the fact that there is such a substance as "water" and that such common place terms as "water" and "coffee" have meaning.<br />You should write about this subject on your own blog, perhaps some would be interested ... but it is far beyond the scope of this post, which is about the fact that water washes and baptism forgives sins.<br /><br />I'm sorry if it seems rude, but I'm not going to go any further on these issues here ... I just don't have the time or patience for (what I consider to be) nonsense.<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-62479831590082098722012-02-29T15:22:55.901-08:002012-02-29T15:22:55.901-08:00@A Rose...,
A child can tell you that salt water i...@A Rose...,<br />A child can tell you that salt water is water ... and that water with a lemon in it is water ... but that tea is not water, and that coffee is not water.<br /><br />Personally, I don't think that the words you quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia are particularly helpful ... and this is probably part of why you are confused ... because it is better to say that natural water (including also impure water) is the valid mater of baptism.<br /><br />You asked me to explain "so that a chemist may understand" ... and this shows the root of your problem. <br />This is a philosophical distinction which does not really touch upon molecules etc. (at least, not in the way that a chemist would think of it).<br /><br />Take another case ... bread used at Mass ... the bread is one "substance", even though a chemist might not see it that way.<br />But even a child can tell you that a piece of bread is one piece and not many.<br /><br />Well, take a look at St. Thomas' explanation -- ST III, q.66, a.4 -- http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article4Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-67335686984923572542012-02-29T13:32:12.661-08:002012-02-29T13:32:12.661-08:00Fr. Ryan, perhaps you did not understand. Rose-wa...Fr. Ryan, perhaps you did not understand. Rose-water is produced by steaming beautiful roses with the steam of "natural water". The steam then cools and condenses back to its natural watery form, retaining some aromatic qualities of the rose. It certainly is "a mixture of water and some other material" where "the water certainly predominates and the mixture would still be called water", as specified by the Catholic Encyclopedia for valid matter.<br /><br />Standard coffee-water (which you simply call "coffee") is a chemical mixture of approximately 99.6 parts water and 0.4 parts roasted coffee bean extract. I checked it in the lab to be sure. As such, it's already "highly diluted". It contains far more water by percentage than does seawater / salt-water which is generally about 3.1% to 3.8% salt content, although salt-water from the Dead Sea is around 31.5% salt content. And though you call coffee-water "coffee", we also call salt-water "brine" or "saline solution". Does that mean a baby can be baptized with "salt-water" but not with "brine" or "saline solution", even though it is the same substance just by a different name?<br /><br />And you offered no comment about "lemon-water". When I ask for water, I'm often served lemon-water. Like rose-water, coffee-water and salt-water, it's also "a mixture of water and some other material" where "the water certainly predominates and the mixture would still be called water". Can it be used for baptism? Or do you say that it is "not natural water... so, of course, it cannot be valid matter"?<br /><br />Could you please explain so that a chemist may understand what is "valid matter" for a baptism?<br /><br />Your comment about "you should go spend some time with children. Even a 2 year old can tell you that lemonade isn't water, after all" is not helpful. A 2-year old child, if he could speak at all, would tell me what he's been taught to say like a parrot, without much use of logic. It would not establish the truth any better than gossip and baby talk. Having spent much time around children, it's obvious to me that if children were served lemonade and taught/socialized to call it "water" that the children would call it "water" and ask for it by asking for "water". Like I said, I routinely ask for water and am served lemon-water, which among some peoples may be called "clear" lemonade. In many western European countries, the term limonade, from which the term "lemonade" is derived, originally applied to unsweetened water or carbonated soda water with lemon juice added.<br /><br />I also enjoy water which has been in contact with sprigs of mint. Some people might call it cold mint tea, but again, when I ask for water, this is sometimes what I'm served. Apparently, people are calling it water, and I gladly drink it with little doubt that it is water.<br /><br />Seriously, why is it permissible to use water to which a teaspoon of salt has been added but not a teaspoon of lemon juice or a sprig of mint which has been strained out? I know for sure that if I asked for a glass of "water" but were served a glass of water with a teaspoon of salt added that I would reject it and say that is not what I asked for. And I suspect many a child would do likewise. Why then may it be used in baptism?A Rose By Any Other Namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15201184493047071502012-02-29T10:46:40.235-08:002012-02-29T10:46:40.235-08:00@A Rose...,
It's not so complicated as you try...@A Rose...,<br />It's not so complicated as you try to make it ... after all, the medievals knew about "rose water" ... reading your comment, one might think that the worlds was shrouded in darkness until recently.<br /><br />Rose water is not natural water ... so, of course, it cannot be valid matter.<br /><br />On the other hand, highly diluted coffee, which is closer to water than to coffee, would be doubtful matter ... and a baptism with such would be doubtful -- in case of emergency we would use it, but then we would perform a conditional baptism with pure natural water as soon as possible.<br /><br />If you really think that all this about what is and isn't water it is purely a matter of subjective opinion and linguistics, you should go spend some time with children. <br />Even a 2 year old can tell you that lemonade isn't water, after all.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29391515509443663632012-02-29T10:39:11.093-08:002012-02-29T10:39:11.093-08:00@Seraphim,
Regarding the comment from "A Sinn...@Seraphim,<br />Regarding the comment from "A Sinner" and the explanation of St. Thomas ... this is a perfect example of the close union between literal and spiritual exegesis ... I am shocked that you would dismiss it as "verbalistic nonsense".<br />Or ... do you really not get it that oil is "potential fire", i.e. it is flammable?<br /><br />@A Sinner ... that is one of my favorite explanations of Pentecost as well! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-59919098224875345022012-02-28T21:53:46.789-08:002012-02-28T21:53:46.789-08:00The Catholic Encyclopedia says "As to a mixtu...The Catholic Encyclopedia says "As to a mixture of water and some other material, it is held as proper matter, provided the water certainly predominates and the mixture would still be called water." Obviously, what "would still be called water" is subjective opinion, semantics, linguistics, culture, what have you. Thus what you might call "coffee" and say cannot be used for baptism, someone else might use it for baptism because he'd call it "coffee-water" or some such, just as some might use "lemon water" or "rose water". Whether it's "coffee-water" (aka "coffee"), "lemon water" or "rose water" (aka "rose hydrosol"), the "water certainly predominates and the mixture would still be called water" by whoever calls it that.A Rose By Any Other Namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55419974446428917992012-02-28T16:31:51.618-08:002012-02-28T16:31:51.618-08:00@A Sinner:
What in the world is "potential f...@A Sinner:<br /><br />What in the world is "potential fire"? This is the sort of verbalistic nonsense that turns people off from Scholasticism and gave fodder to a Voltaire and Moliere.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00147139664156379333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40887762765202195082012-02-28T16:30:14.719-08:002012-02-28T16:30:14.719-08:00"However, if such a change occur as to effect..."However, if such a change occur as to effect the very nature of the water, such that it be no longer water at all, then such a substance cannot be used for baptism. Thus, coffee, or beer, or wine, or other such liquids – as also mud or oatmeal, etc. – cannot be used for baptism. The sacrament is not simply illicit, but invalid.<br />Still, there are certain cases of doubt, as when wine is so diluted as to no longer really be diluted wine but only spoilt water. Similarly with coffee and beer."<br /><br />Unfortunately Father that is really ambiguous. "Nature" is not a hard-and-fast, rigorously defined concept - just a vague description, regardless as to how often Scholasticism treats it as being a clear term. I really do not think we can make a mechanistic, magical distinction between the validity and invalidity of the Sacrament based on "matter" alone; the more wholistic Eastern approach is more true to reality than the Western one in this respect.<br /><br />If we could mechanize the Sacraments this much, then Bud Light would be valid matter for baptism, since for real beer drinkers such as myself there is no discernable distinction between it and water.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00147139664156379333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66479784076036628122012-02-27T11:55:21.648-08:002012-02-27T11:55:21.648-08:00I like the argument from the Summa that since, whe...I like the argument from the Summa that since, when the Apostles laid on hands to confirm, actual tongues of flame came down on the recipients, the chrism now used represents "potential fire" in the form of the oil.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.com