tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post665640986391804375..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: The problem of bilocationFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-46396621236555558962011-11-22T09:24:37.558-08:002011-11-22T09:24:37.558-08:00Somewhat related is the account in Acts where St P...Somewhat related is the account in Acts where St Phillip is transported bodily to another place. Similar things are spoken of in accounts of the Holy Dormition of Our Immaculate.<br /><br />ad Jesum per Mariam,<br />Taylor MarshallAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702278020570844195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-73585353102467001412011-08-01T08:09:12.444-07:002011-08-01T08:09:12.444-07:00I am thinking about, when the bilocation happened,...I am thinking about, when the bilocation happened, how does the mind work? The mind is conscious in one location, or both locations at the same time, or both locations in different time?<br /><br />If only in one location, is that possible Padre Pio can decide which location he is willing to be conscious? <br /><br />If it is two locations, I personally cannot imagine how does this feel.<br /><br />If it is both locations, it might be Padre Pio is conscious in this location first, then conscious in the other location later, just like time travelling.<br /><br />Or may be, the mind is only conscious in one location, but the other location is working using subconscious.Allen Choonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09705299663236919377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52282865719183548302011-07-07T17:31:24.131-07:002011-07-07T17:31:24.131-07:00There are two testimonials(there are more, actuall...There are two testimonials(there are more, actually) that disprove your theory that this is only a matter of soul communication:<br /><br />The first was that of a WW2 plane pilot, whose mother asked Padre Pio to look after him. His plane exploded and he was the only one to manage to leave it. However, his parachute didn't work, but he was brought back safely to the ground, held by the priest.<br /><br />So, there was physical contact with the bilocated body.<br /><br /><br />The second was of a priest that saw Padre Pio "talking to himself" by a window, while he was in bilocation, and he didn't notice the priest's presence.<br /><br />So the "original" body was still there(but unaware of the surroundings).<br /><br /><br />The source(along with other testimonials):<br />http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/Bilo.htm<br /><br /><br />How to explain all this I don't know =)Lucchesihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12665545973564888473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-41461980701227152792011-06-15T20:21:55.780-07:002011-06-15T20:21:55.780-07:00hey, great stuff! brings to my mind the miracle o...hey, great stuff! brings to my mind the miracle of the loaves and fishes. i have often wondered how the multiplication took place. the apostles are passing out the foodstuff, and, what, poof, there is more in the basket? Did they notice the stuff appear in the basket? could they not see because the new stuff was at the bottom? did it come into existence when they looked away?yannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-65607263537144924572011-06-07T19:07:09.739-07:002011-06-07T19:07:09.739-07:00Forget QUANTUM mechanics. There's also just go...Forget QUANTUM mechanics. There's also just good old relativity. A wormhole can connect two discontinuous points in space. Perhaps bilocation can be analogized to a wormhole, with the person in the wormhole visible at both "openings."<br /><br />I generally agree with your analysis, but I'd also add the analogy of a hologram. There's no reason the Saints' effects need merely in the MINDS of the people in the other location after the manner of a "communication"/hallucination. It could be that he's also controlling a sort of hologram remotely that God has created or in which God is the medium of communication between the Saints' mind and the hologram (assuming it's not radio waves or something like that, lol).<br /><br />In this sense, his soul may not be "present"...but may still be having its effects long distance on something that resembles a body (ala the bodies used by the angels, or Moses at the transfiguration in St Thomas's theory)A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-21975345688799407022011-04-11T14:16:13.609-07:002011-04-11T14:16:13.609-07:00@Andre,
I myself would not go so far as to say &qu...@Andre,<br />I myself would not go so far as to say "Christ IS NOT physically present", but I definitely do not think it is helpful to say that he is "physically present". In general, I would rather not use physicality either pro or con. Christ is really, truely, substantially, and sacramentally present.<br /><br />Cardinal Ratzinger, on the other hand, is quite negative about the idea of physical presence: “But this [the doctrine of transubstantiation] is not a statement of physics. It has never been asserted that, so to say, nature in a physical sense is being changed. The transformation reaches down to a more profound level. Tradition has it that this is a metaphysical process. Christ lays hold upon what is, from a purely physical viewpoint, bread and wine, in its inmost being, so that it is changed from within and Christ truly gives himself in them. […] [The Eucharist] is not a thing. I don’t receive a piece of Christ. That would indeed be an absurdity.” (God and the World, 408) <br /><br />The future Pope says it with extreme clarity: “From a purely physical viewpoint” the Eucharistic species is “bread and wine” because the change is not to be understood “in a physical sense.” However, on a more profound level, on the level of being and of essence, indeed the level of substance; there is a radical change by which what was once bread and wine now has become the Body and Blood of our Savior.<br /><br />Within a couple of days, I will be posting an article on why it is important to think of the Eucharist in sacramental rather than physical terms -- especially in relation to the Mass as a sacrifice.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22695834296980222492011-04-11T13:30:18.137-07:002011-04-11T13:30:18.137-07:00If Christ is not physically in the Eucharist then ...If Christ is not physically in the Eucharist then what is the miracle when the bread and wine turned to actual blood and flesh? Not meaning to offend but does that still make Christ not physical in the Eucharist?andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09204614554358571876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36265268738244673292011-04-11T13:03:36.362-07:002011-04-11T13:03:36.362-07:00If Christ is not physically present in the Euchari...If Christ is not physically present in the Eucharist, then what do u call the miracle of the the bread and wine turning into blood and body, physical flesh? <br /><br /><br /> andre,andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09204614554358571876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70214065924317531802011-03-24T13:27:50.012-07:002011-03-24T13:27:50.012-07:00Samantha,
It is wonderful to have you comment and ...Samantha,<br />It is wonderful to have you comment and question here! You are always most welcome!<br /><br />In fact, your intuition is correct...there is one sense in which heaven is a place -- namely, it is the bodies of Jesus and Mary. However, the bodies of Jesus and Mary are not contained in a place...they are the place itself (in what Thomists call "uncontained space")...<br />For more on this point...see my earlier article "Where was Mary assumed to?" -- http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/08/where-was-mary-assumed-to.html<br /><br />However, it is better not to think of the angels as being in heaven as in a place...for them (since they are pure spirits), heaven is entirely a state of existence. <br />Thus, they are able to both be "on earth" (when they act on physical beings) and "in heaven" (through their vision of God).<br /><br />I hope that this helps....I know that it can be a bit confusing...<br />Peace to you!+Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-32526916761629747702011-03-24T11:34:34.713-07:002011-03-24T11:34:34.713-07:00Please note that I am not trying to be difficult, ...Please note that I am not trying to be difficult, just to learn and grow and understand. I recently found this blog through Adoro and like it very much. I grew up Protestant, but no one could answer my questions. I found my way to the Catholic Church and know that all the necessary answers are available with Her.<br /><br />If Heaven is not a place, how/where are the saints and Mary and Jesus Christ all of whom are body AND soul?<br /><br />SamanthaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-62917532185059834702011-03-22T22:21:16.232-07:002011-03-22T22:21:16.232-07:00@Samantha,
The simple answer is that Heaven is not...@Samantha,<br />The simple answer is that Heaven is not a place (especially not for the angels)...<br />Thus, enjoying the beatific vision, they always behold the Father; yet, at the same time, the guardian angels are present (at times) on earth -- through acting on material things present in particular locations on earth.<br /><br />Hope this helps. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-73253016172749299302011-03-22T22:12:16.596-07:002011-03-22T22:12:16.596-07:00I am interested in the claim that angels cannot bi...I am interested in the claim that angels cannot bilocate. CCC 329 quotes scripture that angels "always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven." CCC 336 teaches that each believer has an assigned guardian angel. How can an angel BE WITH us and constantly behold the Father's face who is IN HEAVEN without bilocation?<br /><br />SamanthaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39984409589043197132011-03-16T20:09:51.669-07:002011-03-16T20:09:51.669-07:00Seraphim,
I notice that many of the comments you m...Seraphim,<br />I notice that many of the comments you make bring in certain aspects of the Eastern approach to theology. Thank you for that!<br /><br />However, I also notice that you seem to have a bit of an axe to grind against Western theology ... specifically you seem to think that St. Thomas and the West are too rationalistic, philosophical and also reductioninstic.<br /><br />Rather than going into all the details of that claim (one which really has no place in this particular comment box) ... I would like to point out one simple fact.<br /><br /><br />Gregory Palamas claimed that the Beatific Vision was only an "apparent beatific vision" since the creature cannot possibly see (with an intellectual vision) the divine essence.<br />If you are so quick to accuse Thomists and the West of being too reductionistic for (seeming) to claim that bilocation is only apparent ... how much more is Palamas and the East to be blamed for reducing the mystery of Heaven?!<br /><br />[btw, I'm really not interested in continue the debate on Palamism or the West vs. East ... just a comment for you to think about]Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-12075228587849606282011-03-16T18:48:49.729-07:002011-03-16T18:48:49.729-07:00David - it's not possible for a body to move a...David - it's not possible for a body to move at the speed of light and retain a non-zero mass without the whole nature of space changing (from Minkowski space to Euclidean space) - so God would probably not perform a miracle like making it possible for a massive body to move at the speed of light. And even then it would still be impossible to be at two places at once - c is a finite speed, as Father Reginaldus already pointed out.<br /><br />Christopher - I think it is a bit problematic from a QM viewpoint. How could ONE body be measured with two different (radically different) values for the position eigenstate? It is really a miracle. I certainly don't think it's beyond God's power, which is to say I don't think it's mathematically self-contradictory. I think that Father Reginaldus' solution of reducing it to only apparent bilocation (a solution common among Thomists) is wrong. It is a real miracle, not only an apparent one, and I do agree with Bender that Aquinas was being simplistically rationalistic here. I don't think that's being fideistic or anti-intellectual. The Eastern tradition of the Church from which I came has a very strong tradition of preserving the mystery of the Faith, and one of the major complaints the Orthodox have had against St. Thomas Aquinas - a complaint which the West might do well to take seriously - is a tendency towards wanting to reduce everything in the Faith to philosophical categories. Sometimes we can't do that. I understand that you don't intend to "kill the mystery", but it would seem that any reduction of the mystery of bilocation to apparent bilocation would do so.<br /><br />I would also extend what you say about the sacramental presence of Christ in the Eucharist to the soul. How is the soul present in a PLACE, aside from its assocation with a body? As spiritual, a soul has no "position" you can measure. Bilocation really has to be bilocation of a body in order for the soul to bilocate, unless we are talking about clairvoyance (another common miracle among Eastern saints, one which like bilocation is probably simply a preternatural gift lost by the Fall and which should not be exercised under normal circumstances.)<br /><br />Geoffrey Miller - I'm not sure that it's consistent with the Orthodox understanding (speaking myself as an Orthodox Christian, one in communion with the Pope of Rome, or an "Eastern Catholic") to say that bilocation is JUST a "phenomenon of noetical interactions between souls", and I'm not sure where you're getting that from Protopresbyter Romanides' book. In the East at least since the time of St. Gregory Palamas divinization (what the West calls "sanctification") is given not only to the soul but also to the body, because the body and soul are inseparable. My spiritual father did not even speak of the body and soul as being separate substances, because of his emphasis on their unity (without, of course, denying the separate existence of the body and soul after death before the parousia).Seraphimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-80019986948548728642010-10-31T08:36:57.202-07:002010-10-31T08:36:57.202-07:00how do we get the power to bilocate??...somebody h...how do we get the power to bilocate??...somebody help.....i wanna do good to the world...change the wicked..and help the needy....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-88970910569517798582010-09-29T16:58:20.319-07:002010-09-29T16:58:20.319-07:00Ok. I haven't read all the comments yet and I&...Ok. I haven't read all the comments yet and I'm not a theologian but here goes my two cents. God is outside of time and space (because he created both) so he is not bound by the laws of physics. When people like St. Pio are bilocating, I suppose that they have just been given that gift to go through space.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22657919714298303362010-09-29T12:47:14.999-07:002010-09-29T12:47:14.999-07:00Peregrine,
I very much enjoyed your last comment (...Peregrine,<br />I very much enjoyed your last comment (5:56pm)...I think you are quite right to bring in the Transfiguration and the question of Moses.<br />Funny, when I wrote a Thomistic Scriptural Commentary on the Transfiguration, I sided with Cornelius a' Lapide against St. Thomas - maintaining that Moses' soul was momentarily re-united to his own body (and that he then died again and his body was put back in the earth)...but, in the present context I agree with your analogy...<br /><br />I will let your comment stand as a final word on the mechanics of bilocation...not that it is the only option, certainly there are many possible explanations...but I think the way you have put it has sufficiently taken into account various possibilities (including those from the original article)...I'm still not sure about how a soul can affect a body while at the same time being united to another body, but I don't need to understand everything!<br /><br />Thank you for your contributions!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45552813103538618552010-09-29T08:56:11.880-07:002010-09-29T08:56:11.880-07:00Bio-location is certainly miraculous and a mystery...Bio-location is certainly miraculous and a mystery (i.e., something not completely understood). It is, nonetheless, possible, since it actually does occur; and the apologist should defend the fact that it has occurred by explaining how it is possible.<br /> <br />Bio-location, in the strict sense, is impossible; for, as Father Reginaldus has noted, no integral body can occupy two distinct places at the same time, the theories of modern physicists notwithstanding. The appearance of a body in two places at the same time, however, is possible. That is to say, a body actually in one location can <i>appear</i> also to be in another place simultaneously.<br /><br />God can generate an image or likeness of something, including of something absent (e.g., of a person’s body actually somewhere else). The best example of His doing so is the appearance of the body of Moses on Mount Tabor during the Transfiguration. Moses’ body was clearly somewhere else, but it appeared to be on the Mount; for God generated an image or likeness of his body there so that the chief Apostles would be aware of the Law-Giver’s presence (see <i>ST</i> IIIa, q. 45, a. 3, ad 2um).<br /><br />The person whose body appears present can also be present, in a sense, through his soul; for God can either unite a disembodied soul to a likeness of the soul’s former body, as St. Jerome suggests occurred in the case of Moses, or allow an embodied soul to perceive in an extraordinary way (i.e., otherwise than through the senses) the surroundings of the place where the image or likeness of the person’s body appears. The latter seems to have been the case for Padre Pio; and he describes the extraordinary perception involved as an “elongation,” i.e., a lengthening or enlargement of the soul’s perception. God can even cause the actions of the embodied soul in response to those surroundings to manifest themselves through the apparent actions of that image or likeness not united to the soul. The actual body united to the soul may appear to be motionless or unanimated during the soul’s response to the remote surroundings, as seems to have been the case in St. Anthony of Padua’s bi-location, since the soul’s action then pertains to another body, so to speak, and does not affect the body united to it.<br /><br />Bio-location properly understood can occur; and God has allowed it to occur for sufficiently important reasons.Peregrinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00366226263431558600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-88020477703895454382010-09-29T08:38:18.278-07:002010-09-29T08:38:18.278-07:00Thank you Michel for these correction...I'm no...Thank you Michel for these correction...I'm not sure how I got the citations confused!<br />I hope that it hasn't caused too much difficulty for others!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87184088334891279492010-09-29T08:24:50.328-07:002010-09-29T08:24:50.328-07:00@ Reginaldus (September 24, 2010 6:51 AM)
Correc...@ Reginaldus (September 24, 2010 6:51 AM) <br /><br />Correction re. (Cf. ST III, q.72, a.5) should be (Cf. ST III, q.76, a.5)<br /><br />and @ Reginaldus (September 24, 2010 6:51 AM)<br /><br />Correction re. (ST III, q.73, a.2, ad 3) should be (ST III, q.75, a.1, ad 3)Michelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22308621994151102242010-09-29T07:24:51.904-07:002010-09-29T07:24:51.904-07:00"The eternal now" of God's being is ..."The eternal now" of God's being is called "Kairos". God is everywhere: including those states which cannot be termed a "where." So in a metaphysical sense, --in God there is no such thing as "no-thing" or "no-where". When we are in union with God, (the ground of our being) we are co-extensive with Him. Therefore, if for some reason he wants us to "bi-locate" then we can. With God all things are possible. <br /><br />It might be instructive to re-visit the phenomenon of Blessed Mary of Agreda who in the 15- or 1600's often bilocated from her cloister in Spain to a tribe of Pueblo Indians in the American southwest, instructing them in the faith. --When missionaries eventually came to that region, the whole tribe eagerly converted, and explained their prior knowledge of the faith by the visits of Bl. Mary, describing her appearance and distinctive nun's habit perfectly. As I recall (it's many years since I read this) Blessed Mary was extremely annoyed at the questions the Inquisition asked about her bi-locations; and eventually she said no more about it, indeed this simple nun ceased bi-locating because it caused so much consternation amongst the "learned". <br />--"Aunt Raven"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-18429210231979420402010-09-28T19:01:23.763-07:002010-09-28T19:01:23.763-07:00@Anonymous (sept 29, 1:11am),
Very good point!
St...@Anonymous (sept 29, 1:11am),<br />Very good point!<br /><br />St. Pio didn't try to explain bilocation with quantum theory or science (he didn't try to reduce the mystery to mere biology).<br />On the other hand, neither did St. Pio refuse to speak about the mystery - he tried to explain it as best he could (referring to it as "elongation").<br /><br />St. Pio takes a perfect middle road between to two extremes of so many commentators...I hope to have followed his example, at least as best as I can, in my article.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-16256871628663899462010-09-28T16:11:46.657-07:002010-09-28T16:11:46.657-07:00What did St. Pio himself say?What did St. Pio himself say?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-49460721401957313972010-09-28T15:42:19.230-07:002010-09-28T15:42:19.230-07:00It seems to me that a large majority of comments c...It seems to me that a large majority of comments can be fit into one of two groups...<br /><br />EITHER, like Anonymous (sept 28, 9:40pm), they say that bilocation is a mystery and hint that we ought not be trying to understand it...<br />OR, like the next Anonymous (sept 29, 12:12am), they say that bilocation is just a natural part of the way that matter works and can be understood by quantum theory...<br /><br />Interesting...Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-50976335709514390722010-09-28T15:12:46.548-07:002010-09-28T15:12:46.548-07:00Two things:
1) Padre Pio said that his bilocation ...Two things:<br />1) Padre Pio said that his bilocation was from "an elongation of the personality." This makes sense -- I am simultaneously touching my chair AND the computer keyboard.<br /><br />2) We know that our PERCEPTION of time is not what space/time really is. Space/time is preserved under relativity, but SPACE (alone) or TIME (alone) are not. Physics is now showing us that time is essentially a human perception more than it is a physical phenomenon. It is safe to say that "God does not have time." That is, time is a limitation that God does not have to deal with. So, if my body CAN be in two different places, at two different times, then, if time becomes space/time, or if time is completely "out of the picture" (as it is for God), then we can understand that it is just as possible for God to have a body be in two places at ONE time as it is for the body to be in two places at TWO times. The "time limitation" is a limitation on US not on GOD! THere is no CONTRADICTION here, just a LIMITATION that God does not have!<br /><br />I have taken doctorl-level quantum mechanics, and the thing that you finally have to accept in QUantum Theory is this: Your perceptions are biologically-convenient, time-limited macro-scale PERCEPTIONS --They are NOT what is really "going on."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com