tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post7208753811067038416..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Was Jesus immaculately conceived?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36245204743687719792011-12-12T13:44:00.668-08:002011-12-12T13:44:00.668-08:00"... many Catholics mistakenly think it [the ..."... many Catholics mistakenly think it [the dogma of the Immaculate Conception] refers to the virginal conception of the Christ Child."<br /><br />True. The problem is compounded by the Gospel pericope appointed for the day's Mass (in the "ordinary form"): Luke 1:26-38 (the Annunciation and Incarnation). Interestingly, the pericope used in the "extraordinary form" ends with verse 28 ("Hail, full of grace...") and so does <i>not</i> contribute to the confusion.Fr Thomas Kociknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-23516845214503223752011-12-11T14:19:38.520-08:002011-12-11T14:19:38.520-08:00"Father Ryan Erlenbush said...
Yes, you are c..."Father Ryan Erlenbush said...<br />Yes, you are correct to point this out ... Mary was conceived in the state of grace in a state similar to Adam and Eve before the Fall [...]"<br /><br />While somewhat distracted during Mass during the Feast of the IC, suddenly a light went on in my head. For a long time I had questioned (questioned in the sense of inquiring, not in the sense of doubt) what practical aspects were there to this dogma (practical in the sense of how it could be "applied" to one's own spiritual life).<br /><br />As you said, Mary was conceived in a similar state of a pre-Fallen person. That is also why we can look to her as a model to be emmulated; in her we can see what a person who is in God's grace looks like.Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-83040033999668190092011-12-10T10:27:22.045-08:002011-12-10T10:27:22.045-08:00@Father S.,
Yes, you are correct to point this out...@Father S.,<br />Yes, you are correct to point this out ... Mary was conceived in the state of grace in a state similar to Adam and Eve before the Fall -- though, of course, she received even more graces than they.<br /><br />Thanks for making the connection! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78011315145417636812011-12-10T10:27:21.606-08:002011-12-10T10:27:21.606-08:00@Father S.,
Yes, you are correct to point this out...@Father S.,<br />Yes, you are correct to point this out ... Mary was conceived in the state of grace in a state similar to Adam and Eve before the Fall -- though, of course, she received even more graces than they.<br /><br />Thanks for making the connection! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48160781327075426942011-12-10T07:38:54.564-08:002011-12-10T07:38:54.564-08:00@Sean,
You are correct ... neither Mary nor Jesus ...@Sean,<br />You are correct ... neither Mary nor Jesus were subject to the law of suffering and death, considered as penalties of the sin of our nature; however, both knew suffering and death considered as consequences of our nature (not as consequences of sin).<br />Thus, both Mary and Jesus chose to die though they were not subjected to death (especially not as a consequence of sin).<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-88101054857259962782011-12-10T03:43:32.126-08:002011-12-10T03:43:32.126-08:00Sorry, Father, I think you miss my point. I though...Sorry, Father, I think you miss my point. I thought that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, the Original Sin, they would not have died. Death, as I understood it was a consequence of Original Sin? If Jesus and Mary were without Original sin ( and therefore as Adam and Eve were BEFORE that Original Sin ) how were they subject to the effects of that sin, ie: suffering and death?<br />God bless.<br />SeanSeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10968497890286375912011-12-09T09:14:47.889-08:002011-12-09T09:14:47.889-08:00@Father,
Please pardon my mistake on the "co...@Father,<br /><br />Please pardon my mistake on the "conception" of Adam and Eve. I did misspeak. At the moment of their ensoulment, they were immaculate. <br /><br />The effect that I mention is the effect of being without the stain of Original Sin. Adam, Eve, Our Lord and Our Lady were all without this at the moment when the union of their souls and bodies occurred. <br /><br />Kind Regards, <br />Father S.Father S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48935021262768373072011-12-09T03:36:08.937-08:002011-12-09T03:36:08.937-08:00As Jesus and indeed Mary were conceived without or...As Jesus and indeed Mary were conceived without original sin and were therefore as Adam and Eve were before the Fall how could they suffer the consequences of the fall?Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10317786792511563212011-12-08T20:08:21.991-08:002011-12-08T20:08:21.991-08:00@Andrew #2,
It is a good question you ask ... some...@Andrew #2,<br />It is a good question you ask ... something about which we are free to speculate -- so long as we hold that the clones would have original sin.<br /><br />I would argue that they do inherit original sin through the artificial process of generation and even by the "seminal power of man", though not according to the natural mode.<br />Thus, "seminal power" does not mean simply "sperm", but rather refers to the active force (of doctors perhaps) which causes the new life to begin.<br /><br />I will say this -- what made Jesus to be without sin (beyond the fact that he is God himself) is that he was conceived of a Virgin, having his human nature formed by the active power of the Holy Spirit rather than by any human being.<br /><br />Further, we simply must hold that original sin is passed on through the active generative power of human beings -- it is by propagation (one way or another) that original sin is passed from parent (I say from the father, in the case of natural conception) to the child.<br /><br />Peace and blessings to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61791031712045446222011-12-08T15:51:04.320-08:002011-12-08T15:51:04.320-08:00Personally, I'm just relishing your (plural) t...Personally, I'm just relishing your (plural) to and fro. Please never stop!Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17902203498337003266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-30127348624663882622011-12-08T15:50:57.308-08:002011-12-08T15:50:57.308-08:00Thanks for the illuminating article.
As I read th...Thanks for the illuminating article.<br /><br />As I read the line "since original sin is passed on through the process of generation" I wondered how embryos created in the laboratory, without the "seminal power of man" and indeed (possibly) without an egg from a woman, contract original sin. I wish this was a thought experiment only, but sadly it is now a real situation.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />Andrew #2Andrew #2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38602984185749120872011-12-08T14:45:17.577-08:002011-12-08T14:45:17.577-08:00@Andrew,
I believe that the tradition is the St. J...@Andrew,<br />I believe that the tradition is the St. John the Baptist and Jeremiah (rather than St. Joseph) were cleansed of original sin while yet in the womb.<br /><br />Personally, I am very convinced that this is true ... I believe it is a theological certainty (though not a defined dogma).<br /><br />Peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-24858345719391648402011-12-08T14:43:27.578-08:002011-12-08T14:43:27.578-08:00@Taylor,
I'm not sure what to think about St. ...@Taylor,<br />I'm not sure what to think about St. Maximilian Kolbe's words ... I don't know whether we should say that the Holy Spirit is any sort of "Conception" ... still, in a mystical sense, I suppose that there is truth to his statement.<br /><br />Regarding uncreated Wisdom ... I always thought of the Second Person of the Trinity (rather than the Holy Spirit) ... this seems to be rooted in the Old Testament interpretation of the Church Fathers ... hence, Jesus is "Wisdom Incarnate".<br />Obviously, there is room for different interpretations.<br /><br />Peace to you always! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38470274394768481022011-12-08T14:23:02.953-08:002011-12-08T14:23:02.953-08:00@Father S.,
I don't think we should say that A...@Father S.,<br />I don't think we should say that Adam and Eve were "conceived". They were created, but (being the first parents) they could not have been conceived.<br /><br />Further, it depends what you mean by saying that the effect was the same for our Lord and our Lady ... certainly, our Lady was preserved in such a way as to need a Redeemer, but Christ had no need to be redeemed.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-77911826671215190882011-12-08T13:55:38.216-08:002011-12-08T13:55:38.216-08:00@Father & Andrew,
Nonetheless, while the mea...@Father & Andrew, <br /><br />Nonetheless, while the means may have been different, the effect is the same between Our Lord and Our Lady. In fact, there are four who have been born without the stain of Original Sin, and at least in a general sense are (or were at their conception) "immaculate." Adam, Eve, Our Lady and Our Lord were all conceived without Original Sin, though the grace which preserved Our Lady is certainly singular. <br /><br />In addition to Pope Pius IX, I recommend to you the link below wherein Bl. Pope John Paul II clarifies this issue even further. <br /><br />http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm23.htm<br /><br />Kind Regards, <br />Father S.Father S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42819024436903186832011-12-08T10:18:52.004-08:002011-12-08T10:18:52.004-08:00Good article.
However, we could proceed by beginn...Good article.<br /><br />However, we could proceed by beginning with: The term "immaculate conception" can be used in two ways..."<br /><br />Certainly, in the way it is used for the Blessed Theotokos, it does not apply to Christ.<br /><br />However, considered strictly, Christ was both immaculate (see Apoc. and the Canon of the Mass) and he was conceived (see Creed).<br /><br />Yet, Christ was also conceived differently than Mary. Conceived can be used in two ways. Conception can mark the beginning of a person and this applies to Mary and all human persons.<br /><br />Yet Christ's person did not begin at conception, since his is a divine person. So even there, Christ is unique with regard to his conception.<br /><br />Do you have any thoughts on St Maximilian Kolbe's teaching that Mary is the created Immaculate Conception and the Holy Ghost is the uncreated Immaculate Conception.<br /><br />It's a head scratcher. I prefer to say that Mary is the created Wisdom and the Holy Spirit is the uncreated Wisdom.<br /><br />Sedes Sapientiae, ora pro nobis<br /><br />ad Jesum per Mariam,<br />Taylor MarshallAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702278020570844195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61393122963024988702011-12-08T06:42:25.811-08:002011-12-08T06:42:25.811-08:00Father,
Saint Joseph and/or Saint John the Bapti...Father, <br /><br />Saint Joseph and/or Saint John the Baptist? A question...... Their conceptions would have been "with the stain of original sin" but their individual purity (given their unique and particular roles in salvation history) could have been restored immediately????? Not cogma but seems like I have read this in the past.<br /><br />Any comment? Thank you and may Our Lord reward you for this great service of yours!Andrewnoreply@blogger.com