tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post7236050711800841739..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Final perseverance: You can't get to heaven without itFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-84173576006850372702011-10-09T15:03:16.179-07:002011-10-09T15:03:16.179-07:00Fr.,
How do various promises of the grace of fina...Fr.,<br /><br />How do various promises of the grace of final perseverance to those that observe certain devotions [e.g. observing First Fridays, wearing the brown scapular, etc.] relate to the question of meriting the grace of final perseverance? Are these devotions strictly speaking a type of impetration, or what?<br /><br />2-I don't understand the statement you quoted from St. Thomas:<br />'thus if anyone were to merit perseverance, God would not permit him to fall into sin. Hence perseverance does not come under merit.” (ST I-II, q.114, a.9, sed contra)'<br /><br />Is he saying that since God would not fail to permit someone to fall into sin, that perseverance cannot be a result of merit, since otherwise freedom would be eliminated?<br /><br /><br />Regards<br />Yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-86981448155694068582011-10-03T19:36:05.000-07:002011-10-03T19:36:05.000-07:00Thank you Fr. Erlenbush,
You are more well-traine...Thank you Fr. Erlenbush,<br /><br />You are more well-trained and less stubborn than this donkey.<br /><br />I was thinking of Her, "Yes!" to the Angel. Something I cannot seem to get out of my mind.<br /><br />Lamentably or not so lamentably, I have a failing of not thinking like a philosopher despite reading Etienne Gilson. I could blame the tendency on GKC and Belloc, but I must admit I often have thought behind the words running through my head (perhaps mostly because they are fun to say as they roll of the tongue):<br /><br /> "Oramus te, Domine, per merita Sanctorum tuorum, quorum reliquiae hic sunt, et omnium Sanctorum: ut indulgere digneris omnia peccata mea."<br /><br />~James Joseph.James Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03601404337397444540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10731240773961153912011-10-02T12:23:29.258-07:002011-10-02T12:23:29.258-07:00Carl,
Your question gets into a point of theologic...Carl,<br />Your question gets into a point of theological debate.<br />I believe that some grace is only sufficient and not efficacious (this is the Thomist position), but not all would hold this.<br /><br />In any case, it is certain that when we sin the choice to sin was entirely of our own free will.<br />Even if God could have given us more grace and so kept us from sin, he has at least given us sufficient grace to avoid sin (especially through prayer for more grace). <br />Thus, damnation is the result of mortal sin which comes from the free will of man and not from the predestination/reprobation of God.<br /><br />Setting the theological question aside, we know that we always have enough grace to pray ... and if we pray for efficacious grace, we will receive it (if we persevere in prayer) ... prayer, in the end, is everything!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4168865114135406232011-10-02T09:58:04.873-07:002011-10-02T09:58:04.873-07:00Fr. Erlenbush,
You wrote, "Regarding the gra...Fr. Erlenbush,<br /><br />You wrote, "Regarding the grace of final perseverance ... we must hold that all are given sufficient grace to persevere, but that this grace is not necessarily always efficacious ... certainly, no one "goes to hell" because of not receiving enough grace; the only way someone gets there is through committing some mortal sin through their own fault."<br /><br />Can God give us both efficacious and non-efficacious graces? When we sin, is it because, although God has given us grace, we have rejected God when we could have accepted Him? So was the choice entirely of our own will?<br /><br />Thanks for your help.Carlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-18426808243040731262011-10-02T07:17:42.937-07:002011-10-02T07:17:42.937-07:00James Joseph,
Even our Lady did not strictly "...James Joseph,<br />Even our Lady did not strictly "merit" salvation or final perseverance.<br />She too was redeemed by the blood of Christ - though this redemption was a preservation from sin rather than a healing of sin.<br /><br />[so, your comment is actually not quite right ... it is not what the Church teaches ... Mary did not strictly merit the Beatific Vision ... in this (and every) respect she is more like us than she is like Christ Jesus her Son]<br /><br />The only one who truly "merited" final perseverance is Christ Jesus our Savior. <br />Through Mary, this grace is then shared with all others who are being saved.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38942422175950792602011-10-01T22:53:18.808-07:002011-10-01T22:53:18.808-07:00Someone asked how does the Lord decide who to free...Someone asked how does the Lord decide who to freely grant the grace of final perseverance.<br /><br />I answer: If it were not for Mary all of Mankind would be damned for no one other than the Immaculate Glory of God, Herself, merits the Beatific Vision of God. Those who are close to Mother are in the proximity of the Son. His Justice is compels Him to caste judgements of hell, and His Mother's Mercy compels Him to caste judgements of salvation.<br /><br />-James JosephJames Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03601404337397444540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45669789247239935442011-09-27T09:45:57.670-07:002011-09-27T09:45:57.670-07:00Derek,
While prayer can indeed merit some things, ...Derek,<br />While prayer can indeed merit some things, final perseverance is not one of them.<br />Hence, we say that we "imprecate" this most necessary grace through prayer.<br />[it is not gained as a matter of justice (as in the case of merit), but as a matter of pure mercy]<br /><br />Great question! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-2026201392350063982011-09-27T09:35:48.081-07:002011-09-27T09:35:48.081-07:00Fr. Erlenbush,
But, since prayer is a good work p...Fr. Erlenbush,<br /><br />But, since prayer is a good work provided for by grace through which we may receive the grace of final perseverence, couldn't it be said that prayer is a way to "merit" it through Christ? Or is this an abuse of the term "merit" used technically and scholastically? Thank you in advance.<br /><br />Loved the post. Thanks be to God for God.<br /><br /><br />Cordially,<br /><br />Derek<br />http://lounginglayman.blogspot.com/Derek Caudillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02013712662623261295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-80710711885260409262011-09-26T06:07:28.954-07:002011-09-26T06:07:28.954-07:00@anonymous,
Please try to remember to use a pseudo...@anonymous,<br />Please try to remember to use a pseudonym (at least at the end of the comment), thanks!<br /><br />Regarding the grace of final perseverance ... we must hold that all are given sufficient grace to persevere, but that this grace is not necessarily always efficacious ... certainly, no one "goes to hell" because of not receiving enough grace; the only way someone gets there is through committing some mortal sin through their own fault. <br />[setting aside, for know, the question of limbo]<br /><br />Likewise, no adult goes to heaven without a choice for God (at least an implicit choice).<br /><br />The verses you mention are given to encourage us to trust in God's mercy and love ... indeed, if we are open to receiving his graces (and if we ask for those graces) we will certainly be saved.<br />Grace will not be denied to the one who prays.<br />But, if we do not pray and if we do not ask (if we do not receive the gift of grace) [especially, if we think we are ok without God and if we do not admit that we are sinners in need of the grace of final perseverance], we will certainly be damned.<br /><br />Peace and blessings to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-154431383580086142011-09-25T20:56:08.203-07:002011-09-25T20:56:08.203-07:00Hi, I cannot grasp how to reconcile the possibilit...Hi, I cannot grasp how to reconcile the possibility of not receiving the grace of final perseverance with these two verses:<br /><br />1 Thess 5:23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He is faithful who hath called you, who also will do it.<br /><br />Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he, who hath begun a good work in you, will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus.<br /><br />I would love any help. Both your and my point seem Biblical, but I cannot see how they can be reconciled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-86687118046345618602011-09-25T14:38:49.954-07:002011-09-25T14:38:49.954-07:00I very much like St. Alphonsus' suggestion to ...I very much like St. Alphonsus' suggestion to pray often for the grace of final perseverance. All our prayers and good works are meaningless if we do not persevere to the end. Thanks for the reminder.jeremyschwagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13666706571841510758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42781226260006756342011-09-25T06:00:39.211-07:002011-09-25T06:00:39.211-07:00Some questions:
1. How does God decide who receive...Some questions:<br />1. How does God decide who receives the grace of final perseverance, and who does not?<br />2. Is anyone ever denied this grace, even though he has never committed mortal sin?<br />3. Is it a type of actual grace, or habitual grace?<br />thanks,<br />DanielAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-79283721855053128042011-09-24T20:36:34.607-07:002011-09-24T20:36:34.607-07:00@wpr,
Three very good questions!
1) Final perseve...@wpr,<br />Three very good questions!<br /><br />1) Final perseverance is indeed the last grace which allows us to die in the state of grace ... this could either move us to grace or preserve us in grace ... I don't see any reason why the final grace couldn't move us from sin to grace. [you are right, though, that the word "perseverance" seems to imply that the soul is already in grace]<br /><br />2) Indeed, the "Hail Mary" includes a prayer for final perseverance. This was how I concluded my homily at the Vigil Mass tonight!<br /><br />3) When we consider the mercy of God, it leads us to think that any particular individual and all people together can certainly be saved. God's mercy makes us hope for the salvation of all (not in the way that Balthasar said it though).<br />However, when we look at our own sinfulness, we recognize that we all deserve hell. It would seem that none will be saved.<br />This was the point I was trying to convey -- trust in God's infinite mercy, recognition of our sinfulness and our need for that mercy.<br /><br />Thank you for the clarification questions! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39697273349912917382011-09-24T20:27:49.726-07:002011-09-24T20:27:49.726-07:00Father Ryan,
Thanks a lot for this. I had never ...Father Ryan,<br /><br />Thanks a lot for this. I had never actually heard of the grace of final perseverance before. Could you clarify a few things for me?<br /><br />1) Would it be right to say that in order to receive the grace of final "perseverance," one must first be in a state of grace, i.e., the grace of final perseverance is not what leads to the necessary contrition, but rather, it can only be received after sanctifying grace returns to the soul?<br /><br />2) Would it be right to say that we pray, at least implicitly, for the grace of final perseverance any time we pray a Hail Mary ("pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death")?<br /><br />3) What did you mean when you said that "we cannot help but be certain of the grace of perseverance not only for ourselves but for all sinners?" I assume you weren't suggesting that everyone will receive the grace of final perseverance, because that would mean that everyone definitely goes to Heaven (unless I misunderstood the quote from Trent).wprnoreply@blogger.com