tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post9161797865762073517..comments2024-03-05T11:44:26.154-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Can the poor souls pray for us?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69010714005771157872017-10-25T17:44:01.774-07:002017-10-25T17:44:01.774-07:00Saint Robert Bellarmine (De Purgatorio, lib. II, x...<br />Saint Robert Bellarmine (De Purgatorio, lib. II, xv) taught that precisely because they are secure in their salvation, and permanently united to God, that they have a greater love for Him than the wayfarers, although he did not concede that they are aware of our particular circumstances. The Tridentine doctor, Francisco Suárez (De poenit., disp. xlvii, s. 2, n. 9), Bellarmine’s contemporary and fellow Jesuit, asserts more. He argues thus: “that the souls in purgatory are holy, are dear to God, love us with a true love and are mindful of our wants; that they know in a general way our necessities and our dangers, and how great is our need of divine help and divine grace”.<br /><br />In the Bull of Beatification of Blessed Mary of Divine Providence, Eugenie de Smet, around 1957, it is stated that "it is the mind of the Church that the souls in Purgatory can pray for us."<br /><br />In the post-synodal apostolic exhortation Reconciliatio et paenitentia, St John Paul II states "Everything takes place between the individual alone and God. But at the same time one cannot deny the social nature of this sacrament [of Penance], in which the whole church-militant, suffering and glorious in heaven- comes to the aid of the penitent and welcomes him again into her bosom, especially as it was the whole church which had been offended and wounded by his sin."<br />How can "the Church suffering" that is, the souls in Purgatory come to the aid of poor sinners on earth? They cannot merit. But they can PRAY. <br /><br />“Our prayer for them [i.e. the poor souls] is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.” (CCC 958) therefore THEY intercede.Fr PJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597780307057121375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-35316887235404799742011-11-22T17:57:08.795-08:002011-11-22T17:57:08.795-08:00@A Sinner,
I am delighted to see you connect purga...@A Sinner,<br />I am delighted to see you connect purgatory with the passive purgations in the spiritual nights! You are most certainly correct in this insight (Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was excellent in emphasizing this as well).<br /><br />However, I point out that in these stages, prayer is more a work of God than of the individual.<br />Indeed, this is all the more true in purgatory -- their communion with God is essentially passive.<br /><br />Whether they are able to "pray" is an interesting question -- certainly, they long for God.<br />Whether they can normally pray for something -- I would say "no", since they are in passive purgation.<br /><br />Peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-86301097313280122582011-11-22T16:39:27.584-08:002011-11-22T16:39:27.584-08:00No, I assume it's in some sense like the passi...No, I assume it's in some sense like the passive purgation undergone in mystical advancement. However, persevering in prayer in the general sense (whether it is "for" anything or not) is surely still important for the living during passive purgations. Why are the poor souls different? Surely prayer could never NOT be good for someone. Or could it?A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70770102425815374132011-11-22T09:24:37.901-08:002011-11-22T09:24:37.901-08:00@A Sinner,
I think your comment shows well where t...@A Sinner,<br />I think your comment shows well where this reasoning will lead ... for you end up concluding that the poor souls can (or should be able to) pray for themselves [which is contrary to the whole tradition].<br /><br />Regarding the liturgy ... while we do pray to unknown saints (as on All Saints' Day), yet we never pray to the holy souls in purgatory ... this is the point you are missing: We only pray to the deceased insofar as they are in heaven, we never pray to them (in the liturgy) on the supposition that they are still in purgatory.<br /><br />The whole point of purgatory is "passive purgation" ... they are not purifying themselves but they are being purified ... for this reason they are not able to actively pray for themselves.<br /><br />The fact that you consider purgatory to be an "ascesis" -- which is generally thought of as an active asceticism, and active self-discipline -- shows that you do not recognize the essentially passive nature of purgatory.<br />Purgatory is not an act of asceticism ... it is the suffering of purgation (hence it is passive and not active).<br /><br />Now, as I say, I am certain that the poor souls can, by the special permission of God, pray in our behalf -- this is not "the norm", but it could happen very often.<br /><br />Peace to you. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69044776050975771862011-11-21T16:58:39.631-08:002011-11-21T16:58:39.631-08:00"Further, the sensus fidelium is generally ex..."Further, the sensus fidelium is generally expressed through the sacred Liturgy ... and we see no reference there to the intercession of the poor souls."<br /><br />Why would we expect to see it though?<br /><br />We do see references to all the unknown (ie, not publicly canonized). Though we do not invoke them as individuals in public prayer, yet we know that there are many saints who are known "only to God" and in fact this is in some sense the point of All Saints.<br /><br />I admit it may seem a bit odd to pray too the Poor Souls AS Poor Souls specifically. BUT, they are also "Holy Souls," their salvation is assured, and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be covered by the general sense that all the faithful departed are interceding for us even if we only "single out" canonized Saints in public worship.<br /><br />"I guess I'm just wondering how you would explain the idea that the poor souls are able to pray...but just not for themselves.<br />This seems very odd...for, if a man cannot help himself, how is it that he helps another?"<br /><br />I guess I'm not sure of the exact formulation "can't pray for themselves," either.<br /><br />Of course, there is no longer any satisfactory value to their prayer. They depend on us to give them that, on the Church to offer up the satisfaction they are lacking (and this is why they are "poor" in the sense of poverty; they are truly beggars in some sense).<br /><br />However, satisfactory/expiatory value for sins is one thing...simple intercession is another.<br /><br />I assume the poor souls are praying generally speaking. If purgatory is an ascesis, as it were, then prayer (in the general sense of worship/contemplation, etc) would be essential to their eventual perfection, no?<br /><br />Whether it can be prayer "for" anything raises some interesting semantic questions. Surely in some sense the prayer of the souls in purgatory is to their own benefit (by way of ascesis), is ordered towards their eventual perfection and attainment of the beatific vision.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15773594355065877362011-11-21T12:23:09.917-08:002011-11-21T12:23:09.917-08:00@Anonymous,
I understand that there is some proble...@Anonymous,<br />I understand that there is some problem with that ... which I why I request that (at the very least) the pseudonym be left at the bottom of the comment ... like so ....<br /><br /><br />- Fr. RyanFather Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-77021757835952907632011-11-21T10:44:13.367-08:002011-11-21T10:44:13.367-08:00Your site does not always allow one to log in unde...Your site does not always allow one to log in under a name and to word-verifyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-32058606973592329162011-11-21T10:40:15.119-08:002011-11-21T10:40:15.119-08:00@FR Erlenbush: I suppose it's because once yo...@FR Erlenbush: I suppose it's because once you have died you have 'sealed your fate', in that you have chosen to go to heaven or hell by accepting or refusing God; you can ever change that. Maybe by the same reasoning souls can't pray for themselves because that would constitute accelerating their purging process and in away would be altering their heavenly-ordained time in purgatory. Others, however, can ask for the mercy of Heaven to intercede on their behalf and shorten the process. I don't know, but besides my parents I received my religious education through diocesian priests and the nuns of Don Bosco and they sure knew their onions... :) pepin the shortAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75514869300484820202011-11-20T17:59:49.326-08:002011-11-20T17:59:49.326-08:00@Liam,
Please do note that several of the comments...@Liam,<br />Please do note that several of the comments have been in agreement ... I will not take the time to go back and count, but it is certainly not as though all those here speaking believe that the poor souls can ordinarily pray for us.<br /><br />Further, the sensus fidelium is generally expressed through the sacred Liturgy ... and we see no reference there to the intercession of the poor souls.<br />Finally, the "sensus fidelium" is more than just those gathered at any one moment (especially, in a time like ours which is so ill-catechized) ... rather, we must look to the whole of the tradition ... and we see almost nothing of praying to the poor souls (at least not for the vast majority of the Church's history).<br /><br />Still, I am inclined to think that the poor souls can pray for us by the special dispensation of God, in certain extraordinary circumstances.<br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-62248101676389334382011-11-20T17:54:18.656-08:002011-11-20T17:54:18.656-08:00If anything this blog posting has provoked a sort ...If anything this blog posting has provoked a sort of sensus fidelium and, if I'm not too obtuse, the sensus seems to hold for the belief that the Poor Souls (often our nearest, dearest, and closest in life) do not expunge us from their thoughts and prayers even while in Purgatory.Liam Ronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376666519733160167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-21414235647090473022011-11-20T17:29:15.412-08:002011-11-20T17:29:15.412-08:00@pepin and brad,
I guess I'm just wondering ho...@pepin and brad,<br />I guess I'm just wondering how you would explain the idea that the poor souls are able to pray ... but just not for themselves.<br />This seems very odd ... for, if a man cannot help himself, how is it that he helps another?<br />Even Christ, through his Cross, merited first his own glory (i.e. the Resurrection) and then the salvation of others.<br /><br />If the poor souls are able to pray, and this is in the norm -- how is it that they are unable to pray for themselves?<br /><br />My explanation (which is really that of St. Alphonsus) would explain this by saying that, when the poor souls do pray for us, it is by a special divine dispensation and is not part of their normal abilities.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45445517294249650482011-11-20T12:59:01.119-08:002011-11-20T12:59:01.119-08:00Pepin, I agree with that. Praying for oneself is ...Pepin, I agree with that. Praying for oneself is a luxury afforded by the wayfaring state. The poor souls are no longer wayfaring.Bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-1449421817178884592011-11-20T00:07:40.460-08:002011-11-20T00:07:40.460-08:00Growing up I was always thought that we can pray f...Growing up I was always thought that we can pray for souls in purgatory and they can pray for us. They can't, however, pray for themselves - for their own needs. Anybody else remembers this...?pepin the shortnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-21230218332623238572011-11-19T13:48:44.172-08:002011-11-19T13:48:44.172-08:00"Of course, the poor souls lack the beatific ..."Of course, the poor souls lack the beatific vision -- which means that the only way they could know would be through infusion of intelligible species. However, this would require a special grace; just as (even for the living) special grace is needed to receive infused knowledge. Hence, it is not 'in the norm' - not even the angels can do this without the special assistance of God."<br /><br />Ah, see, I lean more towards the belief that it IS within the natural powers of the angels to infuse intelligible species (to lower spirits). After all, that's their manner of communicating with each other is it not? The infusion "downwards" of knowledge?<br /><br />Maybe you have some reason, but if they do it naturally with each other, I'm not sure why they couldn't naturally with human souls.<br /><br />Furthermore, there is the question of demons. Of course, we must say, "allowing a demon to interact with a person must be allowed by God"...but EVERYTHING must be allowed by God in the general sense of Providence. I think it's odd to think of things like as if God is giving "special graces" when demons possess someone (which I take to mean a certain type of infusing of knowledge.)<br /><br />In fact, I thought that one of the whole points of guardian angels is that they protect all people (generally, unless for reason of sin or testing God has the angel "step down") from demonic influence or infusion (because, after all, only one angel can act on one "place" at a given time, so if my soul is already being guarded by my angel, a demon can't come in).<br /><br />If there are reasons this position can't be possible, I would like to know them, but it seems to me that if angels have to rely on a direct act of God to communicate with a lower spirit every time...this would be quite a "gulf" in creation, given that we as humans can easily interact with animals and vegetables and minerals even just under our natural powers.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-21697648080918743442011-11-18T22:25:11.379-08:002011-11-18T22:25:11.379-08:00@ Michelangelo,
Certainly, after death, we leave t...@ Michelangelo,<br />Certainly, after death, we leave time "as we know it" ... but we do not leave time all together. <br /><br />Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange speaks well to this point in "Life Everlasting", chapter 12 on the separated soul, "eternity and time" ... see the link to this work in the right tab.<br /><br />Peace to you always! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61463916284544539482011-11-18T22:21:11.976-08:002011-11-18T22:21:11.976-08:00@ Howard, You make a good point ... there could be...@ Howard, You make a good point ... there could be something to the idea of certain poor souls having a special obligation in charity to some of the living.<br /><br /><br />@ Veronica, while I would say that the novena to the holy souls would ask for their prayers in an extraordinary way, i would not immediately discourage the use of that novena.<br />But I would say that our general devotion should be of praying in their behalf (rather than for their intercession).<br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-85223063079575805862011-11-18T22:19:25.639-08:002011-11-18T22:19:25.639-08:00@Zevlag,
As I understand it, the prayer of St. Ger...@Zevlag,<br />As I understand it, the prayer of St. Gertrude is only found in certain manuscripts and not in the Revelations of St. Gertrude ... further, the promise is made solely to St. Gertrude and is contingent upon perfect love.<br /><br />Still, it is most certainly a very valuable prayer and, I would think, that if it is said with perfect love it would free many souls from purgatory -- though, I doubt whether the average recitation of this prayer does in fact free 1000 souls.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40884770527903476402011-11-18T20:20:29.860-08:002011-11-18T20:20:29.860-08:00Dear Father Ryan,
Great post, but back the train ...Dear Father Ryan,<br /><br />Great post, but back the train up, Father! Have you explained elsewhere the concept of "time" for those in Purgatory and Heaven, with only God being "outside of time"? I always thought that once we died, we also left time as we know it... Do I win the dunce hat AGAIN??? Thanks, Father, I'm praying for the poor souls, God bless you.Michelangelonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14191783482809354642011-11-18T15:48:49.859-08:002011-11-18T15:48:49.859-08:00I haven't read all of the comments, so forgive...I haven't read all of the comments, so forgive me if this was already brought up, but what about those "Novena to the Holy Souls" booklets? Are they useless? <br /><br />VeronicaVeronicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-57409216189902447062011-11-18T14:23:03.191-08:002011-11-18T14:23:03.191-08:00My mother used to claim that when she had difficul...My mother used to claim that when she had difficulty sleeping, she prayed to the poor souls. I told her we are supposed to pray for the poor souls, not to them. But I don't think she agreed with that bit of theology.<br />One case where poor souls might pray for someone: if their purgation is due to injuring or scandalizing some person, this might be a major source of their prayers.Howardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-63865526178496760662011-11-18T14:20:01.015-08:002011-11-18T14:20:01.015-08:00Fr.,
Luckily we are touching upon this subject and...Fr.,<br />Luckily we are touching upon this subject and I want to ask you this question which I have not gotten a direct answer. Having read books about saints, one common theme (if I can call it that) is that it is costly and difficult to release one soul from purgatory. With that being said, is the prayer of St. Gertrude the Great factual? Does it actually release 1000 souls from purgatory every time it is said? I tend to dismiss it because it seems too easy.<br />ThanksZevlagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29117866534916698262011-11-18T11:54:40.166-08:002011-11-18T11:54:40.166-08:00Dear Father Erlenbush, I'll grant you my chara...Dear Father Erlenbush, I'll grant you my characterization "any use" was inept however, if there is more joy in heaven over a sinner come to repentance than 99 just who have no need of it then it might be inferred that the joy of saints can be increased by human action and therefore while 'useful' might not be quite right it might be argued that we actually can increase the joy of saints by our actions on earth.Liam Ronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376666519733160167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8640442411855277632011-11-18T10:41:31.381-08:002011-11-18T10:41:31.381-08:00Taylor,
Thank you for mentioning also the role tha...Taylor,<br />Thank you for mentioning also the role that the angels and saints could play in this. Certainly they could bring our prayers (in certain circumstances) to the poor souls!<br /><br />Further, you make a good point (which is really the fundamental purpose of my article, but you said it more clearly) -- when it comes to intercession in our behalf, the poor souls are not like the saints. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87390605167037367202011-11-18T10:02:23.319-08:002011-11-18T10:02:23.319-08:00It seems that the poor souls "hear" in a...It seems that the poor souls "hear" in a different mode than the saints.<br /><br />The saints have access to our prayers and all the circumstantial conditions of our requests through the Beatific Vision. As we all know, the poor souls do not have the Beatific Vision.<br /><br />However, the poor souls do have charity, grace, and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in their souls. So perhaps there is a way by which messages can be delivered to the poor souls.<br /><br />Perhaps a helpful distinction would be to say that saints always do hear us and respond, but the poor souls can only do so by a special intervention via God, angels, or saints. This seems to be precisely what you saying. So the poor souls COULD perhaps hear us, but certainly not in the way that the saints hear us.<br /><br />ad Jesum per Mariam,<br />TaylorAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702278020570844195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-30162258115915325062011-11-18T10:01:34.392-08:002011-11-18T10:01:34.392-08:00@Joshua,
Yes, you are correct!
Thank you for the c...@Joshua,<br />Yes, you are correct!<br />Thank you for the citation!<br /><br />The poor souls do receive infused knowledge - just not (normally) about us.<br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.com