tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post3025593864936330110..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Is Anointing the sacrament of the dying? Yes and noFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14458608653901028212012-03-04T19:27:22.675-08:002012-03-04T19:27:22.675-08:00Anonymous,
Please use a pseudonym.
The disease mu...Anonymous,<br />Please use a pseudonym.<br /><br />The disease must put the person in a real and actual (though remote) danger of death.<br />It can't be merely a potential threat to life, but must be a real threat.<br /><br />Hence, there are some diseases which pose a real threat in the moment ... and which could have very low percentage of sudden death ... these would certainly justify Anointing.<br />[though successive Anointings would only be given if the condition got significantly worse]<br /><br />Hope that helps! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-53090024912333453432012-03-04T10:27:46.292-08:002012-03-04T10:27:46.292-08:00What about someone who feels fine, but has a condi...What about someone who feels fine, but has a condition that carries a risk of sudden death? (about 8% annual risk that's probably growing)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-57410975163335454172012-02-25T10:12:14.758-08:002012-02-25T10:12:14.758-08:00@Wine in the Water,
The "recipients" of ...@Wine in the Water,<br />The "recipients" of a sacrament are those who can receive the sacrament validly.<br />Hence, if a sacrament is conferred upon one who is not a recipient, that sacrament is not merely illicit but invalid.<br /><br />Example: If a baptized person is "re-baptized" (even with the correct matter and form, water and a Trinitarian formula), that second baptism is not merely illicit but even invalid because he is not a recipient of that sacrament. <br /><br />If the recipients of Anointing are those who have begun to be in danger of death, then those who are not in danger of death (i.e. gravely ill) are not recipients of the sacrament.<br />And, if such are not recipients of Anointing, then the attempt at Anointing them is not merely illicit but even invalid.<br /><br />Likewise, just as it is invalid to absolve an infant (because the child has not reached the age of reason and has committed no sins), so too it is invalid to Anoint an infant (for the same reason that the child cannot receive Reconciliation, neither can he be Anointed).<br /><br />Further, look to the theology of the sacrament ... Anointing makes NO SENSE AT ALL when removed from danger of death.<br /><br />It should be clearer now. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-81364290048599386192012-02-24T16:25:37.489-08:002012-02-24T16:25:37.489-08:00This does raise a question for me. You've sta...This does raise a question for me. You've stated that giving the Sacrament to those who are not gravely ill risks invalidating the Sacrament, but none of the quotes say that. They all say that the Sacrament should only be given to those who are gravely ill. Does non-gravity of illness really affect the validity of the Sacrament, or only the licitness?Wine in the Waterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16142633311407145793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13003770064361252442012-02-23T10:28:33.023-08:002012-02-23T10:28:33.023-08:00@Brian S,
A surgery can be an occasion for Anointi...@Brian S,<br />A surgery can be an occasion for Anointing, but not the cause.<br /><br />That is to say -- if someone has an illness (or old age) which posses a real (even if only remote) danger of death, then that person could receive Anointing.<br />Moreover, if there is need for surgery, it makes sense to receive this Anointing before surgery -- not because of the surgery, but on account of the illness (or old age).<br /><br />Hope that is clearer now ... I wrote an article about this while back ... you can probably find it through the search engine in the upper left of the page.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-89092356397769926342012-02-22T13:50:02.654-08:002012-02-22T13:50:02.654-08:00I have often heard that those who are about to und...I have often heard that those who are about to undergo surgery of any kind can be receive Anointing of the Sick. The idea seems to be that since there is always the possibility of death when undergoing anesthesia/surgery (you have to sign off on it!) that it therefore qualifies you to receive the sacrament. Is that the case?Brian Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13090250825241093641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3013102111324108822012-02-22T13:27:20.376-08:002012-02-22T13:27:20.376-08:00John,
It's not enough for the unborn child to ...John,<br />It's not enough for the unborn child to be in danger of death ... the mother must be.<br /><br />See my earlier article on this subject: http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2012/02/can-pregnant-woman-be-anointed-on.htmlFather Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-2196034469349548062012-02-22T13:26:34.586-08:002012-02-22T13:26:34.586-08:00Fr. Maximos,
The Eastern Code of Canon Law explici...Fr. Maximos,<br />The Eastern Code of Canon Law explicitly says that the sacrament is given for the "gravely ill" and those who are "sincerely contrite" for sin -- hence, danger of death and age of reason are required.<br /><br />Further, if a priest is Catholic, then he must accept the Ecumenical Council of Florence which states that Anointing is only given to those of whom there is a fear of death.<br /><br />Whatever is going on in the Mystery of "Holy Anointing" ... it is either a sacramental or a serious abuse.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-23271572304520832882012-02-22T13:24:21.829-08:002012-02-22T13:24:21.829-08:00@Robert King,
It is difficult to know exactly when...@Robert King,<br />It is difficult to know exactly when mental illness would justify Anointing ... but there would be such occasions ... perhaps suicidal thoughts could (in rare circumstances) ... I would deal with each individual on a case-by-case basis.<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72099498192938844232012-02-22T13:22:16.524-08:002012-02-22T13:22:16.524-08:00@Marion,
Yes, if a labor is such that the life of ...@Marion,<br />Yes, if a labor is such that the life of the mother is in danger, then Anointing should be given.<br /><br />Thanks! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-27470271380998010872012-02-22T13:20:21.590-08:002012-02-22T13:20:21.590-08:00Casey,
I'm not sure what Bishop Serapion could...Casey,<br />I'm not sure what Bishop Serapion could have meant by that statement ... the Ecumenical Council of Florence says that it may be given only to those whose death is feared.<br /><br />So, no, normal infertility does not justify the sacrament.<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-6028134289006462372012-02-22T11:06:25.332-08:002012-02-22T11:06:25.332-08:00Fr. Ryan,
Not necessarily in defense of Mr. Shea,...Fr. Ryan,<br /><br />Not necessarily in defense of Mr. Shea, however...<br /><br />Considering the effects of sin, could one not argue that without the fall, infertility and chronic miscarriages would not be part of the current human condition; i.e- sickness and death? <br /><br />The Sacramentary of Bishop Serapion (29:1) on the sacrament's effects: "it may be effected for the casting out of every disease and every bodily infirmity...for the good grace and remission of sins..."<br /><br />Could you not include infertility as "every bodily infirmity."<br /><br />Thank you for your thoughts.Caseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-76897318403083474952012-02-22T09:26:07.035-08:002012-02-22T09:26:07.035-08:00Note on miscarriage: A healthy woman with a good g...Note on miscarriage: A healthy woman with a good gynecological history may recover quickly and with minimal lasting effects. In the case of a woman with a history of miscarriage, however, once early labor gets underway, hemorrhage or other serious complications are a possibility: she may be facing a medical emergency.Marion (Mael Muire)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-25638454786949996452012-02-22T08:56:35.439-08:002012-02-22T08:56:35.439-08:00Fr. Ryan,
It would seem that most mental illness ...Fr. Ryan,<br /><br />It would seem that most mental illness is excluded from Anointing because it does not present "danger of dying". What of suicidal ideations, though? These present a danger of death, though it retains a moral quality as well. Is there a definite teaching in such a case?Robert Kinghttp://www.virtue-quest.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55164791648464196572012-02-22T07:01:30.214-08:002012-02-22T07:01:30.214-08:00I wonder whether you would ever consider including...I wonder whether you would ever consider including the practices of the Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) in speaking to this topic. In the tradition of the Byzantine Rite it is very common, and never regarded as an abuse, to offer the Mystery of Holy Anointing to all baptized members of the Church who desire it, especially in Holy Week (Holy Wednesday specifically), and often more frequently during Lent. It is considered that the sacrament is for the healing of spiritual and psychological, as well as physical, ailments.<br /><br />This is certainly an area where the practice and discipline of the Latin Rite differs from that of at least some of the Oriental liturgical traditions.Fr. Maximos Davieshttp://www.hrmonline.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-30623034579080857452012-02-22T04:51:29.965-08:002012-02-22T04:51:29.965-08:00Father:
In your opinion, what *should* the pastor...Father:<br /><br />In your opinion, what *should* the pastoral response be to those who struggle with frequent miscarriages? If these women are not gravely ill, what are they? If their children are not in danger of death, what state would you consider them to be in?<br /><br />I would love to have you blog on the pastoral response to miscarriages as a whole. What should the Church's reply be to those who are grieving the loss of their unbaptized children? How should their remains be disposed of? Should there be a funeral mass?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />JohnJohn R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12866799787241059667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-31226625044297053962012-02-19T10:17:19.957-08:002012-02-19T10:17:19.957-08:00Yes, I understand and her pastor must have been un...Yes, I understand and her pastor must have been unable to come possibly due to other commitments or responsibilities. Maybe we should all be carrying the name and phone numbers of our priests to call in an emergency. A reminder in parish bulletins on Sundays might serve to remind the faithful that that call for extreme unction needs to be made before and not after the fact. Fr. Ryan, thank you for your prompt reply and clarification.Elizabeth Diannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-20658726344366176612012-02-19T06:50:53.512-08:002012-02-19T06:50:53.512-08:00Elizabeth,
I'm very sorry to hear of sudden lo...Elizabeth,<br />I'm very sorry to hear of sudden loss for your sister and all the family.<br /><br />The priest was correct that, after an hour (if he was dead for an hour), it would clearly be too late for Anointing or any sacrament.<br />However, if he was only just pronounced dead ... maybe there would be time -- after all, doctors aren't always right ... still, I can see the priest's point.<br /><br />However, the Church does provide prayers for after death ... and generally the priests would go and at least pray these with the family.<br />I'm not sure what happened and why the priest did not come ... perhaps he really could not get away from his other duties ... I'm very sad to hear that your sister had to go through all this.<br /><br />Prayers for you all. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-18822753252659684962012-02-18T14:05:30.054-08:002012-02-18T14:05:30.054-08:00My sister's husband collapsed suddenly with a ...My sister's husband collapsed suddenly with a heart attack while at work this week. After waiting an hour the doctor announced attempts to revive him had failed and that he was dead. Only then did she think to call their pastor, at which point, she was informed it was too late, he would not come to give the last rites. See you tomorrow was more or less the response she received. This raises the question, does the Church teach at what point the soul has left the body? Was it really too late? I understand that she should have called earlier but she was confident he would survive and the thought never crossed her mind that he would die. In situations like this, where the death is so sudden, people do not necessarily think clearly and call a priest.Elizabeth Diannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14621576754164189192012-02-14T11:56:11.719-08:002012-02-14T11:56:11.719-08:00@Billy,
I don't always agree with Mr. Shea -- ...@Billy,<br />I don't always agree with Mr. Shea -- and, for my taste, he writes far too often about politics.<br /><br />Still, I am convinced that he is an honest man and that he is willing to sacrifice his own will in order to follow the truth (as best as he knows how).<br />And you don't find many like him in the world today -- especially in the blog-world.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91331086307021249042012-02-14T09:26:12.123-08:002012-02-14T09:26:12.123-08:00You have a good deal of respect for Mark Shea? Sa...You have a good deal of respect for Mark Shea? Say it ain't so father, say it ain't so.BillyHWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26926033150648747902012-02-14T05:29:43.654-08:002012-02-14T05:29:43.654-08:00@quid est veritas
Yes, a man on death-row could re...@quid est veritas<br />Yes, a man on death-row could receive Confession and Holy Communion as Viaticum.<br /><br />Indeed, all the faithful who are in danger of death FROM ANY CAUSE are bound to receive Viaticum (if possible).<br /><br />Good question. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13605510206912712452012-02-13T14:33:51.438-08:002012-02-13T14:33:51.438-08:00Father, what about someone who is healthy, but is ...Father, what about someone who is healthy, but is going to be killed (like a condemned criminal). Can such a person only go to Confession and receive Viaticum?Quid est Veritas?noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-25114731337286861122012-02-11T10:57:02.183-08:002012-02-11T10:57:02.183-08:00@Gabby,
It sounds like there are some grave abuses...@Gabby,<br />It sounds like there are some grave abuses happening there.<br />The teen girl should probably have gone to confession rather than anointing.<br /><br />Let us pray for grace and light! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-44691517682843026592012-02-11T10:52:27.746-08:002012-02-11T10:52:27.746-08:00@Michelangelo,
Yes, the Church has a rite for &quo...@Michelangelo,<br />Yes, the Church has a rite for "visits to the sick" which includes opportunity for confession and communion, as well as many prayers.<br /><br />Regarding "healing anointings" beyond the sacrament -- we just must be clear that it is not the sacrament.<br />Thus, we cannot use the blessed Holy Oil, nor should we do the blessing during the context of Mass.<br /><br />Blessings! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.com