tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post3564575167991212580..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Mary's Nativity and the children's limboFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47354642906771725302011-06-13T10:28:26.684-07:002011-06-13T10:28:26.684-07:00hilaron (david),
Your point about proto-dulia is w...hilaron (david),<br />Your point about proto-dulia is well taken.<br /><br />I guess I still would be hesitant to ascribe this grace to St. Joseph -- but I will also admit that, in recent years, there has been a great increase in our theological understanding of this great Saint. Thus, I am certainly open to the hypothesis. <br /><br />[and, as I said before, since a vast majority of Catholics (and even many theologians) hold to the salvation of these infants, they ought also to maintain the sanctification of Joseph in the womb]Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38207526612145086252011-06-13T10:19:38.138-07:002011-06-13T10:19:38.138-07:00Dear father,
I agree that it seems very improbabl...Dear father,<br /><br />I agree that it seems very improbable that such an extraordinary grace would be given to vast numbers of people -- I think children's limbo is a reality and I think we can safely say that this is the most probable and safe opinion to hold in such matters.<br /><br />The reason I'm asking is that since we are to give Saint Joseph proto-dulia, the first among the saints after Mary, would it not seem appropriate then that he was in some sense sanctified more eminently than other great saints (ie. John the Baptist and Jeremiah)? Of course, that something is "appropriate" in this sense does not mean that it is factually true. I think you mentioned it in your post. But does not God give graces according to state, and what an exalted state Saint Joseph had! He was to be able to take charge of the Holy Family, notwithstanding that he was the least holy of the three, he was to humble himself to the point that in obedience to God he would command God the Son as his Foster-Father. Such extraordinary tasks are in my mind totally impossible without the most extraordinary graces. How do we account for such graces without the pre-natal sanctification of Saint Joseph?<br /><br />I'm not quite sure where I stand on the issue, so I'm merely asking questions at this point. I haven't studied it in-depth from a theological stand-point, merely let it be the object of pious reflection at certain times, mainly because of a video I watched on AirMaria.com with Dr. Mark Miravalle.<br /><br />Appreciate everything you do here, father! I have learned very much and it is really comforting to know that you have place to go to when you need to bring up some discussion in a charitable and friendly tone. All too often people are so dismissive right off the bat and there seems to be a sort of enmity between the parties, especially on the Internet. No room for intellectual debate or honest inquiry. You provide a much needed oasis.<br /><br />In Jesus, Mary and Joseph,<br />Davidhilaronhttp://denlillavagen.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-76391131564525031092011-06-13T08:12:32.245-07:002011-06-13T08:12:32.245-07:00hilaron (David),
Personally, I do not think that t...hilaron (David),<br />Personally, I do not think that the opinion of a pre-natal sanctification of St. Joseph is anything more than wild speculation.<br />Following St. Thomas, I do not think that we should posit anyone to be so sanctified unless it is contained either in Scripture (John the Baptist and Jeremiah) or in Tradition (the Blessed Virgin Mary).<br /><br />However, I would at least say this about St. Joseph -- to me it certainly seems more likely that he was so sanctified than that the billions of miscarried babies were given this very special grace.<br /><br />In other words: It would seem to me to be very bizarre if anyone held that these children went to heaven while also holding that St. Joseph was not sanctified in the womb (like John the Baptist) -- how could St. Joseph be deprived of a grace supposedly given to so many?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15214940654152082152011-06-12T22:41:08.026-07:002011-06-12T22:41:08.026-07:00Dear father,
What is your take on the theological...Dear father,<br /><br />What is your take on the theological opinion that Saint Joseph was sanctified in the womb according to the manner of Saint John the Baptist? As I understand it, this has not received magisterial weight, but is nonetheless the opinion of such as Saint Bernardine and Gerson.<br /><br />In Jesus, Mary and Joseph,<br />Davidhilaronhttp://denlillavagen.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75007640720283873422010-12-29T15:39:57.748-08:002010-12-29T15:39:57.748-08:00Chatto,
Limbo is (technically) part of hell, but ...Chatto, <br />Limbo is (technically) part of hell, but there is no subjective punishment -- those in Limbo are in a state of natural happiness, subjectively this is a great state of joy and bliss. <br />So, they will receive their bodies in the Resurrection but they will not be glorified -- this is because they will not have the beatific vision.<br />They will know God as their First Cause and loving Creator, they will see God's work in creation, they will see each other (and those being punished in the lower regions of hell) ... but they will not see anything of heaven or of Christ or of the saints.<br /><br />It is important to hold that they know nothing of heaven or Christ -- because they don't realize what they are missing (supernatural happiness), thus they are naturally happy and unaware of any loss. <br /><br />They will suffer no pain, but neither will they enjoy supernatural beatitude; they will enjoy natural happiness of body and soul.<br /><br />[all this is on the presumption that there is a Limbo, and I am pretty sure there is]<br /><br />Hope that helps! Blessings!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29090321889013617492010-12-29T04:42:40.360-08:002010-12-29T04:42:40.360-08:00Father,
if Limbo, as a place of natural happiness...Father,<br /><br />if Limbo, as a place of natural happiness and free from punishment, is true, how will it relate to the new reality after the general Resurrection?<br /><br />For instance, will they be returned to their bodies, though probably not glorified, or remain as disembodied souls? If they are physical, and the righteous are able to see God face-to-face, will those in Limbo be able to see the righteous? Could this be one way in which they know God as First Cause and benevolent Creator - through the obvious blessedness of the saints?Chattohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488939389859451887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61251198738649152332010-11-09T23:44:16.059-08:002010-11-09T23:44:16.059-08:00@David,
I don't think you are seeing the radic...@David,<br />I don't think you are seeing the radical difference between hoping that some of those who died before Christ may have been saved and hoping that unbaptized babies might be saved.<br /><br />Moses had a true (though implicit) faith, it was this faith which saved him -- St. Paul makes it very clear that Abraham was saved by faith.<br />This faith was a "baptism by desire".<br />Hence, there is no comparison between the Old Testament fathers and the unbaptized babies.<br /><br />Babies are baptized by the will of there parents, the desire of the parents/Church stands in for the actual faith of the child -- this is in the actual sacrament of baptism.<br />There is no reason to suppose that the parents faith could supply for the sacrament of baptism itself!<br /><br />Now I am not trying to say definitively one way or the other on the limbo question (though you can guess my own opinion) -- but I do think we at least need to recognize just how completely extraordinary a thing it would be for an unbaptized child to go to heaven...it would seem to be more comparable to an "immaculate conception" than to a "baptism by desire".Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-25778568093715449202010-11-09T12:06:17.653-08:002010-11-09T12:06:17.653-08:00Baptism of desire and spirutual sponsorship of the...Baptism of desire and spirutual sponsorship of the unborn.<br /><br />Can we not as catholics, through prayers and good works sponser the unbaptized to eternal salvation in heaven.<br /><br />Good is ever merciful, the unborn can not speak for themselves, however we can speak for them.<br /><br />Do we not, when we stand for the newly baptised baby, make their promise for them.<br /><br />And what of the righteous of the old testement, did not Christ die to open the gates of Heaven to them? They were not baptised, does that mean the linger in limbo?<br /><br />We do not know what awaits us after death save the judgement and God's Mercy. Pray for the unbaptised, the rest is God'sDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15640383254374131781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70237270665181235232010-09-18T22:03:13.071-07:002010-09-18T22:03:13.071-07:00@Andrew (Sept 19, 1:29am),
I am inclined to agree ...@Andrew (Sept 19, 1:29am),<br />I am inclined to agree with you on all points.<br /><br />It would indeed be a very great assumption to think that the special graces given to John the Baptist, Jeremiah, and the Blessed Mother are shared with millions...<br />Jesus does have a very special love for children, though. <br /><br />There are certainly many good reasons for maintaining the belief in limbo.<br /><br />Blessings.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-73331601772265752992010-09-18T16:29:41.443-07:002010-09-18T16:29:41.443-07:00I do not see what is so odious about the common te...I do not see what is so odious about the common teaching of the Church (through the Saints and Doctors) about the limbus puerorum, aside from "modern man"'s almost total disconnect from reality and true rational thought. What we know for sure has been discussed by the Councils, the Fathers, Doctors, Saints, etc. at length for hundreds of years and it all points towards either a partially mitigated hellfire for unbaptized infants (Augustinianism) or the state of perfect natural happiness (the Thomist/Scholastic school). Only fairly recently has this innovation of the universal salvation of the unbaptized gained any currency. It is a complete shot in the dark, certainly without any real basis in what came before.<br /><br />God is all merciful, but He is also all just. It seems that those who promote the idea that God has some mysterious salvation for the unbaptized conflates the natural and supernatural orders, even if only unintentionally. If heaven is man's natural end, then God would be unjust in frustrating anyone from that "natural" end, however, since this is not man's natural end God is not frustrating anyone's nature by allowing them to rest in limbo. This is both merciful and just.<br /><br />Also, it would also seem that to propose that God grants the graces that would seem to be so special in the BVM and St. John the Baptist to potentially millions and millions would make that grace considerably less special. <br /><br />Dominus dedit, Dominus abstulit; sicut Domino placuit, ita factum est. Sit nomen Domini benedictum.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03286578491636129500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-79516346133270170642010-09-17T14:21:47.236-07:002010-09-17T14:21:47.236-07:00Richard,
Thanks for reading! We're all glad to...Richard,<br />Thanks for reading! We're all glad to hear that the articles on our blog are helpful to others. They are certainly a blessing to ourselves!<br /><br />Peace in Christ!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61343448644200699552010-09-16T21:34:22.607-07:002010-09-16T21:34:22.607-07:00This is very good reading. Your articles are grea...This is very good reading. Your articles are great and thought provoking and very informative.<br /><br />Thank you and blessings to you(all)Richardnoreply@blogger.com