tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post3599184494716499594..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Is there Mass in heaven? Is Christ a priest forever?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-85090599751355612822012-11-17T13:59:05.442-08:002012-11-17T13:59:05.442-08:00Father,
I think that the theology of the eucharis...Father,<br /><br />I think that the theology of the eucharist and Mass here presented are somewhat impoverished because of an apparent over-reliance on the Tridentine paradigm at the expense of the broader liturgical tradition of the Church, especially that of the east. <br /><br />For instance, the understanding of the eucharist as a "mystical banquet" is a primary theme in the east, dating back to the earliest days. It is fully supported by the fathers. Indeed, the Catechism contains a section on this aspect of the Eucharist. The Catechism contains an ancient prayer: "O sacred banquet in which Christ is received as food, the memory of His Passion is renewed, and the soul is filled with grace..."<br /><br />Perhaps most importantly, you've severely truncated the sacrificial aspect of the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not simply the representation of Christ's "pasch," but to our own participation -- indeed, the participation of the whole world -- in that sacrifice. "In the Eucharistic sacrifice the whole of creation loved by God is presented to the Father through the death and resurrection of Christ ... Christ unites the faithful to His person, to His praise, and to His intercession, so that the sacrifice of praise to the Father is offered through Christ and with Christ, to be accepted in Him" (CCC 1359, 1361). It goes on to say that the "Eucharist is the sacrifice of the Church. With [Christ] she herself is offered whole and entire The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ" (CCC 1368).<br /><br />The earthly eucharist is a shadow of the heavenly eucharist, wherein the Body, united to the Head, offers itself -- body, heart, and mind -- to the Father. This is an eternal sacrifice, albeit a "reasonable" one, to use the language of the liturgy. One of the eucharistic prayers even speaks of a "heavenly altar."<br /><br />You cannot bind the mystical passover of Christ in time. Pope Benedict writes as much: "The sacrifice of Christ is not situated behind us as something past. It touches all times and is present to us. The Eucharist is not merely the distribution of what comes from the past, but rather the presence of the Paschal Mystery of Christ, Who transcends and unites all times. "<br /><br />St. Augustine wrote, "Such is the sacrifice of Christians: the multitude is one single body in Christ. The Church celebrates this mystery by the sacrifice of the altar, well known to believers, because in it, it is shown to her that in the things which she offers, it is she herself who is offered." This offering -- of the Church through, with, and in Christ, the Body with the Head -- shatters any spatial or temporal boundaries. It is in the past, it is in the present, it is in the future -- and in eternal kingdom.<br /><br />PhilipAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-92222818464483917662012-11-07T20:09:19.717-08:002012-11-07T20:09:19.717-08:00There has been some confusion in earlier comments ...There has been some confusion in earlier comments (from helgothjb, and Doug, and others) which results from not understanding that there are some actions which Christ performs by virtue of his divinity and others performed by virtue of his humanity.<br /><br />He is a priest by his humanity, thus his priestly sacrifice is offered within time ... it is not outside of time ... it is not eternally present to the Father as an eternal act ... rather, it is an action which was accomplished in time.<br /><br />Jesus is not being born of the Virgin right now in heaven ... neither is he preaching the sermon on the mount right now in heaven ... so too, he is not offering the sacrifice of the Cross right now in heaven.<br /><br />I urge all to think that through a bit, and they will quickly see why they have been confused on this point. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-64482706872700935652012-11-07T19:55:59.328-08:002012-11-07T19:55:59.328-08:00@Spartacus,
I hope everyone knows that you are bei...@Spartacus,<br />I hope everyone knows that you are being sarcastic in that first line! :-)<br /><br />However, I would try to be a bit more gentle with Dr Hahn, he really is a kind man and good hearted.<br /><br />However, I would agree that it would be far better to read Gueranger! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-49495777383132894132012-11-07T13:27:48.187-08:002012-11-07T13:27:48.187-08:00Respectfully, Father, without disagreeing with any...Respectfully, Father, without disagreeing with anything said here, it would seem that two facts are overlooked or underemphasized - forgive me for repeating what the other comments have said:<br /><br />(1) The Eucharist consecrated is the *glorified* Body of Christ, not the suffering (i.e., it is a mystical re-presentation). But this implies that the Eucharist does have eschatological connotations.<br /><br />(2) Quoting St. Symeon of Thessaloniki regarding church architecture: "The narthex represents the earth, the nave heaven, and the sanctuary that which is above heaven." The structure of the church interior is itself eschatological.Seraphimhttp://byzantinechesterton.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78979330518534748032012-11-07T13:13:17.525-08:002012-11-07T13:13:17.525-08:00Dear Father. You have not read Dr. Scott Hahn'...Dear Father. You have not read Dr. Scott Hahn's ideas re Apocalypse and Mass? How dare you call yourself a Priest? :)<br /><br />Dr. Hahn is the apotheosis of Catholicism, a position he ascended to due to the refusal of AmBishops to discharge their duties to Teach, Rule, and Sanctify.<br /><br />Dr. Hahn's materials and sources are suffused with protestant theologians and there are far better, and more reliable, sources for the Catholic layman.<br /><br />Any Father could do his family a great blessing by investing in Dom Gueranger's, "The Liturgical Year."Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26164018098033903272012-11-05T23:35:31.963-08:002012-11-05T23:35:31.963-08:00Father,
This column, and the responses it receive...Father,<br /><br />This column, and the responses it received, serve to remind us that not even the Magisterium can adequately explain that which is most truly (and briefly) defined as "a Holy Mystery". It is as impossible as it is necessary for our finite minds to attempt to understand the Infinite.<br /><br />Pax tecum,<br />FrZ+CónegoZ+https://www.blogger.com/profile/03449436611998306957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-69014919276784132162012-11-04T14:58:00.661-08:002012-11-04T14:58:00.661-08:00Arguments from the Apocalypse regarding time are f...Arguments from the Apocalypse regarding time are famously dangerous; in fact, Rev. 13:8 mentions "the Lamb which was slain from the beginning of the world." We also know that God is not contained by time", and that "[w]e know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is."Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04843514873861242426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-24926779743943730482012-11-04T14:54:29.169-08:002012-11-04T14:54:29.169-08:00Fr. Erlenbush,
I'll need to examine more care...Fr. Erlenbush,<br /><br />I'll need to examine more carefully what these materials which I mentioned are presenting. While I think you are correct that there is a tendency to overly "heaven-ize" the Mass, I don't remember them going overly far in that direction. I'll post again here if something strikes me at worth commenting on.<br /><br />There does seem to be an orthodox sense in which we can say that through the Mass we are joined with the heavenly worship that takes place eternally; but without a clear understanding that the Mass is most fundamentally a re-presentation of, and participation of the faithful in, the ONE Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, I agree that false understandings ("table," "presider," "banquet," etc.) will tend to cloud the ultimate understanding.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />A.S.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17602407422249228147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39081174303280678362012-11-04T12:31:56.710-08:002012-11-04T12:31:56.710-08:00Call it what you will, but wherever and whenever J...Call it what you will, but wherever and whenever Jesus Christ is present, along with his resurrected human body, there is, truly present, the one time, once for all, perfect and eternal sacrifice for the sins of the world. As for all the other details you mentioned ... I hope to see you there, so we can better appreciate all this throughout eternity. Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754947682537102928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-32081183722464159212012-11-04T08:41:37.349-08:002012-11-04T08:41:37.349-08:00Fr, I appreciate what you are saying here. Nevert...Fr, I appreciate what you are saying here. Nevertheless, it seems to me that what takes place in heaven is essentially a Mass outside of time, the reason being summed up in the following points:<br /><br />First, Jesus’ offering of Himself on the Cross was the offering of a divine person (per the Council of Ephesus, 431, Jesus did not have human personhood). Since His divinity cannot experience time (the divine nature necessarily exists outside of time), His offering is necessarily an eternal offering (i.e., there has never been a “time” when His sacrifice was not present to the Father, even before the creation of the universe).<br /><br />Second, based on the first point, Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary was an eternal sacrifice lived out in time by way of His human nature. Hence, His sacrifice on the Cross has both an eternal and a temporal aspect. “The Paschal Mystery of Christ . . . cannot remain only in the past . . . and all that Christ is . . . participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all” (CCC 1085).<br /><br />Third, the temporal aspect of Jesus’ sacrifice is forever out of our reach, for, clearly, the Mass is not a form of time travel where we are transported back to the moment of Jesus’ Crucifixion. However, because His sacrifice has an eternal aspect, it is not out of our reach, if God chooses to make it temporally present to us, which He does in the Mass. <br /><br />It seems to follow, then, that what is intrinsic to the Mass, that is, the eternal offering of Jesus to the Father, is present in heaven. If this is correct, then would not one’s experience of heaven be, essentially, an endless participation in what is, in effect, a Mass, though of a form that differs significantly from the Mass that we experience in this life? If not, what is missing from the reality of heaven that would keep it from being Mass? Is His eternal sacrifice no longer made present to us? It seems like Rev 5:6 indicates that it is: “I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain.”Dick Landkamernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-395346137345294732012-11-04T06:27:05.028-08:002012-11-04T06:27:05.028-08:00Fr. Erlenbush,
With all due respect, I do think y...Fr. Erlenbush,<br /><br />With all due respect, I do think you are in error here. Christ, after the ressurection, continued to have the wounds of the passion. In the vision of St. John, Revelations, He is shown as a lamb that has been slain. These things show that Christ Jesus continues to offer the one sacrifice to the Father. Although the sacrifice is no longer a bloody sacrifice, i.e. there is no physical suffering, it is the sacrifice of His will to that of the Fathers. This offering is eternal because Christ is eternal. It is the one and same offering made on the cross, although now the physical suffering has passes since God is unchanging and outside of time and physical suffering need both. On the sacrifice of the Holy Cross heaven ans earth kissed. It is true indeed that the Holy Mass is the prepetuation of the sacrifice of the Calvary in mystery throughout history. However, it is also true, since it is the ressurected Christ made present, that the Mass is a participation in the offering eternal presented to the Father in heaven. How else are we to understand the prayer asking for the Angel to take this sacrifice to your altar in Heaven? It is not the future vs the historical sacrifice. It is both and.helgothjbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406542027890269879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42495900805389430822012-11-04T05:18:45.122-08:002012-11-04T05:18:45.122-08:00Just making a comment on how awesome the associate...Just making a comment on how awesome the associated illustration of Our Lord wearing vestments and elevating the Chalice is.<br /><br />It's pretty awesome. Just plain cool.James Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03601404337397444540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8936260886783656392012-11-04T00:00:32.897-07:002012-11-04T00:00:32.897-07:00Father,
I agree with your comments on the modern(...Father,<br /><br />I agree with your comments on the modern(ist) approach to Mass in these times. Since when are jokes to be told in the homily? And the priests who seem to ab lib the prayers of consecration? Sadly, the Novus Ordo Mass opened the doors to improvising the Mass and taking the focus away from Jesus, who is to increase as the priest must decrease. Thankfully, good and faithful priests such as yourself and the new generation of priests coming out of the seminaries do take the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass seriously and do not see Mass as the time to try out their comedy routines.Clinton R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38880910816210542832012-11-03T18:59:44.206-07:002012-11-03T18:59:44.206-07:00Marko,
Very deep questions!
My short answer would ...Marko,<br />Very deep questions!<br />My short answer would be that we should consider the act of offering to be one -- that which Christ made upon the Cross. So, I am not sure that there is a second or third or thousandth offering of the sacrifice each time Mass is celebrated ... but that one offering of that one sacrifice is sacramentally re-presented.<br /><br />Hope that helps, at least a little bit! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52210366855954685082012-11-03T18:57:29.186-07:002012-11-03T18:57:29.186-07:00A.S.,
Indeed, I have not read Scott Hans book -- t...A.S.,<br />Indeed, I have not read Scott Hans book -- though I have great respect for him as a Catholic man. From what I hear, it sounds like he would be somewhat falling into what I consider to be a mistaken approach. (and there are others far higher than he)<br /><br />Still, I would rather recommend "A key to the doctrine of the Eucharist" by Abbot Vonier. This is the best book I've found on the Eucharist -- and it was written originally in English and only about one hundred years ago! Who would've thought?!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-30710267902828638532012-11-03T18:55:05.239-07:002012-11-03T18:55:05.239-07:00Barry,
That quote (from the US Bishops) can be a b...Barry,<br />That quote (from the US Bishops) can be a bit misleading ... notice, nevertheless, that they do not say that there is "Mass" in heaven, but rather speak of the "heavenly liturgy" ... because the sacrifice is not offered in heaven.<br /><br />Still, it would seem to me that the particular phrasing is not all that helpful ... then again, even bishops can sometimes speak in a way that is not particularly clear.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15983791273324370062012-11-03T18:02:08.183-07:002012-11-03T18:02:08.183-07:00Jesus the eternal Son of God made his act of sacri...Jesus the eternal Son of God made his act of sacrifice in the presence of his Father, who lives in eternity. Jesus' one perfect sacrifice is thus eternally present before the Father, who eternally accepts it. This means that in the Eucharist, Jesus does not sacrifice himself again and again. Rather, by the power of the Holy Spirit his one eternal sacrifice is made present once again, re-presented, so that we may share in it. Christ does not have to leave where he is in heaven to be with us. Rather, we partake of the heavenly liturgy where Christ eternally intercedes for us and presents his sacrifice to the Father and where the angels and saints constantly glorify God and give thanks for all his gifts.."Barry Perattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-74801250029805153852012-11-03T14:20:02.450-07:002012-11-03T14:20:02.450-07:00Fr. Erlenbush,
I'm a little alarmed, because ...Fr. Erlenbush,<br /><br />I'm a little alarmed, because I'm hoping that I have not misled people in my helping them to understand the nature of the Mass.<br /><br />Could you clarify: what ideas and opinions are you directing this post against? I need it spelled out.<br /><br />I've found Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper" and Ascension Press' "A Biblical Walk Through the Mass" to be very helpful to myself and others, for instance, but now you have me concerned that these materials might be (unintentionally) misrepresenting the Mass because of their heavy reliance on the parallels between the Mass and the Book of Revelation.<br /><br />I was thinking of hosting Ascension Press' Mass study at a local parish. I'd like to understand what you are saying better before I go through with this.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />A.S.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17602407422249228147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70843315908882604092012-11-03T12:05:30.441-07:002012-11-03T12:05:30.441-07:00I know about the sacramental(and real) separation ...I know about the sacramental(and real) separation of Christ's Body and Blood on the altar which is due to [i]vis verborum[/i], and i know that this "causes" Christ to be in the state of victimhood on our altar. I know that when He is offered to the Father in the Mass, the sacrifice is the same for the offerer and the offering are the same - namely Christ Jesus.<br /><br />But...<br /><br />I'd like to know in what way does He offer Himself to the Father. What is His inner state and how is that linked to natural and sacramental mode of existence? What does He think? Is it:"Abba. I offer You Myself..."? How is the sacrifice of the Cross re-presented? Is it somehow warped through time to us(for it is not multiplied but yet it is said that sacrifice of the Cross is renewed - could you also explain that)? How does He sacrificially offer Himself in the Mass?<br /><br />How the Father looks upon this sacrifice of the altar? Is He merely reminded of the passion and death and the merits, which He then dispends on the faithful?Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.com