tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post4021331402505841756..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Why Jesus used bread (rather than the Paschal Lamb) for the EucharistFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-67981927170278468622012-06-28T15:23:16.100-07:002012-06-28T15:23:16.100-07:00Perhaps, in the use of Bread and Wine, Christ expr...Perhaps, in the use of Bread and Wine, Christ expressed the will of the Father that we look to the simplicity of Creation rather than its complexity. Likewise, so should blood sacrifice conducted under the species of a live victim, which entails a complex series of biological degradation leading to death, be replaced by a bloodless sacrifice under simple species which in essence lead to life. The Covenant is fulfilled and death no longer wins!<br /><br />Deacon Bill GallerizzoUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15179727967413723314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-54335711928470814282012-06-25T05:24:37.567-07:002012-06-25T05:24:37.567-07:00Is it possible to add a forward to your web page s...Is it possible to add a forward to your web page so we can more easily spread the word that it is here? Are you on you tube or facebook? Somehow that seems irreverent to me, but maybe I am being scrupulous.<br />I am simply wondering how to spread the knowledge your web page is out there for those of us struggling through these times --it is so wonderful --I want my teenagers to know about it --a forward to their parents would be so easy compared to a cut and paste -- which I will immediately try to do!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-89750526511767901142012-06-21T07:20:48.044-07:002012-06-21T07:20:48.044-07:00thank you for all these great posts. I have also b...thank you for all these great posts. I have also been thinking about our eucharist. That something so simple could be used by our astonishing God. I am astonished. I wish we catholic people had more reverance for our God in the simple species. I also think since we are dust and God can come and live in us, He can certainly choose bread which is something even little children (or others without alot of teeth)can easily consume. Thank you all for your posts. DeniseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29572258018222740482012-06-12T03:07:55.997-07:002012-06-12T03:07:55.997-07:00Take a look at Joshua chapter 9 and Genesis 26:26-...Take a look at Joshua chapter 9 and Genesis 26:26-33, considering the role of an anticipatory meal of bread and wine, eating and drinking, as a covenant is effected reestablishing peace between its two parties. This also sheds light on Jesus words, "I call you no longer servants but friends," because that language of "friends" has political connotations as well, i.e. that we are now political allies (cf. 2Sam16:15ff and 1Kings16:11).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72061747261250807782012-06-11T11:47:13.972-07:002012-06-11T11:47:13.972-07:00Perhaps the Grain was used as an earthly edible da...Perhaps the Grain was used as an earthly edible daily symbo,to indicate that on the Last Judgment Day the Lord will separate the wheat from the sheaf. It was a practical choice for even the poorest. The reference to companionship was the breaking of the Bread at the Last Supper in the upper room referring to community the Quahal Yahweh the gathering. Come share my Bread translates companionship in French. Com Panier.Terry connollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13648603905095539872012-06-11T10:55:41.166-07:002012-06-11T10:55:41.166-07:00Christ did not use a lamb because He became the un...Christ did not use a lamb because He became the unblemished Lamb on the cross. I was taught that and it is simple but true. If Christ had used a lamb it would not have signaled the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New. Christ's immolation of His very self was the end of the Old Covenant. Just as God provided the Lamb to Abraham, God provided the Lamb, His only begotten SonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4320251431648971172012-06-11T09:52:05.391-07:002012-06-11T09:52:05.391-07:00Fr Erlenbush,
I also think the usage of bread and ...Fr Erlenbush,<br />I also think the usage of bread and wine also makes more clear the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary. Would we not be required to a kill a lamb for each Eucharist if Christ had used a lamb? Also, he is the lamb, so using a physical lamb at the Passover seems a bit confusing to my mind.Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66358326387711933652012-06-11T08:40:31.775-07:002012-06-11T08:40:31.775-07:00Nice treatise, but a few critical points were over...Nice treatise, but a few critical points were overlooked. In the sacrifice of a lamb under the covenant, the shedding of blood is what was to atone for sin. Since Abraham sacrificed the ram instead of Isaac, the lamb became the standard as a prophetic symbol of the Lamb of God who would eventually fulfill the covenant; in the generic human psyche, there is an aversion to the killing of another human being - some people can do it alot, but it eventually takes its toll psychologically on most people. As Christ, Second Person of the Trinity, died for our sins, in His perfection is the perfect atonement, not in the use of an ordinary lamb. To have used a lamb would have been a compromise and not a successful atonement. As the ultimate shedding of Christ's blood resulted in His death and resurrection, He put an end to all blood sacrifice as it was now completely accomplished, and therefore there could be no further compromise. But in the Eucharist is our assurance that the Ultimate Sacrifice remains valid and uncompromised, therefore it must continue as a sacrifice, not of only bread and wine, but of the actual Body and Blood of Christ. <br />So, why bread and wine? In the use of bread and wine, if we look in nature, we actually see the forming of them naturally in certain situations: wine is formed by a natrual fermentation process of sugar into alcohol by action of microorganisms (a process in Nature that came as part of God's creation prior to the advent of man's sin. Prior to man's production of wine, certain orchids in the Mediterranean produce wine in their bowl shaped flowers as part of their on-going procreation -their partaking in God's creation.); a form of unleavened bread is produced by certain bees and ants (social insects) by using starch from plants and water (again, a process that existed prior to the advent of sin). Thus, the process is one whose origin is found in Nature as integral to God's creation and compatible to our own existence. Therefore, like Christ's origins are eternal and unblemished so are the origins of bread and wine, and although Christ could have chosen a pascal lamb as the species of sacrifice, the order of the day was to fulfill the convenant. To continue in its previously insufficient form of unhuman victim would be to essentially not fulfill the covenant, and would not be a perfect sacrifice. Given all of these precepts, bread and wine are the perfect choice, and few other options palatable to humans would have been sufficient fulfillment as the Body and Blood of Christ. God's logic surpasses our own, but He always keeps us and our flawed outlook in mind.Deacon William Gallerizzonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-28606786979482690772012-06-11T06:50:07.027-07:002012-06-11T06:50:07.027-07:00Wasn't the Last Supper a Passover meal, using...Wasn't the Last Supper a Passover meal, using unleavened bread (the bread of affliction) and wine?Convertingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48423747171838806322012-06-11T05:10:57.955-07:002012-06-11T05:10:57.955-07:00Dear Father,
I thank you for pointing out that spe...Dear Father,<br />I thank you for pointing out that specific passage from St. Paul - it is indeed what I meant!<br />I also thank all other people who posted their suggestions: there are many suppositions proving that Jesus chose the best food and drink for the Eucharist - or better, the most fitting with respect to what he wanted the Eucharist to be.Alessandronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55079293660404122202012-06-10T19:11:25.500-07:002012-06-10T19:11:25.500-07:00Related to the Melchizedek connection:
One of Davi...Related to the Melchizedek connection:<br />One of David's psalms is a prophecy of the Eucharist being in the form of bread and wine. Psalm 110 talks about the Messiah's reign.<br /><br />The Lord has sworn<br />And will not relent,<br />“You are a priest forever<br />According to the order of Melchizedek.”<br />(talking to the Messiah)<br />-Psalm 110:4<br /><br />Jesus, the Messiah, is the priest, and to be a priest according to the order of Melchizedek (as in the high priest) is to use bread and wine.Corinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-77403813857428718722012-06-10T15:07:50.729-07:002012-06-10T15:07:50.729-07:00The Todah Sacrifice involved the use of bread and ...The Todah Sacrifice involved the use of bread and wine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-85051420912726495912012-06-10T13:26:54.092-07:002012-06-10T13:26:54.092-07:00@dianne,
Yes, precisely!
And this is why one migh...@dianne,<br />Yes, precisely! <br />And this is why one might have expected that Jesus would use lamb-flesh as the matter for the Eucharist ... since bread (in itself) does not very clearly indicate that Jesus is the Lamb of God -- nor does it seem particularly sacrificial (and neither does wine ... unless we look with the eyes of faith). +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3774550365807127842012-06-10T10:08:08.491-07:002012-06-10T10:08:08.491-07:00There was a lamb at the last supper. The lamb was...There was a lamb at the last supper. The lamb was Jesus.diannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29026348805764376812012-06-10T09:20:23.155-07:002012-06-10T09:20:23.155-07:00Father,
another historical reason (that does not ...Father,<br /><br />another historical reason (that does not erase the theological dimension): the paschal meal of the poor in Jesus' times was bread and wine. Joachim Jeremias proved it beyond doubts.<br /><br />AnacletoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-60034562323381670022012-06-10T05:38:27.641-07:002012-06-10T05:38:27.641-07:00@Howard,
Historically, you are correct.
However, ...@Howard,<br />Historically, you are correct.<br /><br />However, our Savior's intention was not bound to the moment in time, but was directed toward the whole life of the Church. <br />Thus, as our Lord knew he would command Eucharistic Adoration in the future (about a millennium later), we are right to see that the use of bread was to prepare for this.<br /><br />However, as you rightly point out, the Eucharist does not seem to have been kept for adoration in the earliest days of the Church ... though, as soon as possible, the Christians did build basilicas and then at least small amounts of the Eucharist were kept (and there is much more to say here -- like that a piece of the Host from the bishop would be kept and mingled with the Eucharist at other Masses, as a sign of unity -- but we will leave it at that).<br /><br />Also, very very early on, communion was kept for Viaticum to the dying.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13806490055457578292012-06-10T05:33:32.305-07:002012-06-10T05:33:32.305-07:00@Jack,
I would have to see more information on tha...@Jack,<br />I would have to see more information on that ... the Church teaches that only wheat bread can be used for the Eucharist ... and this is (as far as I have every discovered) accepted across the Orthodox Churches as well.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14738533889069042302012-06-09T21:52:58.536-07:002012-06-09T21:52:58.536-07:00St. Louis De Montfort actually put the most beauti...St. Louis De Montfort actually put the most beautiful perspective on this question that I ever heard. In paragraph 71 of his classic work "The Love of Eternal Wisdom" he said the following:<br /><br />" Eternal Wisdom, on the one hand, wished to prove his love for man by dying in his place in order to save him, but on the other hand, he could not bear the thought of leaving him. So he devised a marvellous way of dying and living at the same time, and of abiding with man until the end of time. So, in order fully to satisfy his love, he instituted the sacrament of Holy Eucharist and went to the extent of changing and overturning nature itself. He does not conceal himself under a sparkling diamond or some other precious stone, because he does not want to abide with man in an ostentatious manner. But he hides himself under the appearance of a small piece of bread - man's ordinary nourishment - so that when received he might enter the heart of man and there take his delight. Ardenter amantium hoc est - Those who love ardently act in this way. "O eternal Wisdom," says a saint, "O God who is truly lavish with himself in his desire to be with man."<br /><br />Absolutely beautiful!Bobby Hesleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-83469541444028389362012-06-09T20:17:41.162-07:002012-06-09T20:17:41.162-07:00My understanding is that in the early Church, the ...My understanding is that in the early Church, the Eucharist was always entirely consumed -- if for no other reason because the Church was persecuted and could not guarantee the safety of a tabernacle. In the East this is still done, because what looks like bread is combined with what looks like wine. Furthermore, this practice seems to be more in keeping with the Passover tradition, since the entire lamb had to be eaten by morning, with any uneaten portions properly disposed of. Consequently, the concerns about spoilage seem to be less significant than some of the other points that have been brought up.Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04843514873861242426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-53468764466743599212012-06-09T19:09:42.640-07:002012-06-09T19:09:42.640-07:00The fact that God chose to give us this gift, the ...The fact that God chose to give us this gift, the gift of Himself, made truly present in this way, "causes me to tremble".deepoctavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14607654315624415875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10323300824657698182012-06-09T18:48:21.964-07:002012-06-09T18:48:21.964-07:00When I was in college, a professor pointed out tha...When I was in college, a professor pointed out that the substance of all the parables of Jesus is natural, available universally and throughout all times. For example: oil, seed, water, fish, etc. So, lamb does not fit that criteria. Jesus chose to consecrate that which most people can obtain and relate to.Laura Marienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52543246733420342532012-06-09T16:49:53.720-07:002012-06-09T16:49:53.720-07:00I am not a Priest but just a simple layman. I atte...I am not a Priest but just a simple layman. I attend Mass each morning and oddly, I began asking myself this very question these last few weeks. I have actually meditated on this question during prayer. Why bread and wine? I think perhaps it has something to do with God and man working together. God provides the seeds and the rich soil needed for both grapes and wheat. Man (often many people) work the fields together, harvest together, grind the wheat together and even press the grapes together. In ancient times it was often a communal thing. It was a community coming together and working with God’s gifts to create food and drink. I think that is what Jesus wanted his followers to do. “Feed my sheep”. So many of his parables were about people working together tending the fields and vineyards and how they often attained success through working together as one. We are all called to tend God’s fertile fields and reap His harvest. I believe that Jesus was the only “blood” sacrifice that God has ever accepted for our sins. The millions of animals sacrificed have been in vain. When that perfect sacrifice was complete perhaps Jesus was saying…no more lambs please! Let the Pagans sacrifice their animals to their gods. My Father wants the works of your hands and your hearts.Anthonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61152393168026544482012-06-09T16:36:21.353-07:002012-06-09T16:36:21.353-07:00And then of course there's John 6.And then of course there's John 6.kkollwitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691145638703824456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39480326455224059212012-06-09T16:34:11.523-07:002012-06-09T16:34:11.523-07:00I think that with bread & wine "work of h...I think that with bread & wine "work of human hands," Jesus is showing the importance of our cooperation with His intent for the Eucharist. Wheat and grape juice won't cut it. Rather, we must take those things and transform them through our work into the elements that enable Jesus to do his greater transformative work. It's like creating children: God depends on our cooperation for his creation of more people to continue.kkollwitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691145638703824456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38639214363650699432012-06-09T16:08:35.155-07:002012-06-09T16:08:35.155-07:00\\It seems to me that wheat is more easy to come b...\\It seems to me that wheat is more easy to come by than lambs, and less expensive, and easier to prepare, etc. Though I am sure there are still places in the world (and certainly have been in the past) where wheat is rare.\\<br /><br />As a matter of fact, I understand among the Ethiopians, a bread made from millet (the usual grain) is used, and at least some of the ancient Churches of India use rice flour.<br /><br />Furthermore, all the Eastern Churches with the exception of the Armenian Church and a few of those in communion with Rome use leavened bread, and even these last are a late Latinism.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01133668737743486061noreply@blogger.com