tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post4365647637135461374..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: What the man without a wedding garment was lacking, A reflection on the day of judgmentFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29921796060800813702014-10-16T08:00:22.369-07:002014-10-16T08:00:22.369-07:00I didn't accuse you of anything, nor assumed a...I didn't accuse you of anything, nor assumed anything about you but i did tackle a line from your article. You say that people can be invisibly united to the Church, and i say that they can't and then we both expand on that - therefore my comments have to do with your article.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-23473322672966046612014-10-16T07:01:26.497-07:002014-10-16T07:01:26.497-07:00Marko, if you want to talk about assuming and accu...Marko, if you want to talk about assuming and accusing ... I will point out that you have taken one line from my article, remived it from all context, and then placed it in the midst of modern debate about "anonymous christians" etc.<br />Your comments truly have nothing to do with my article. You can look elswhere on my blog to find discussion of the three kinds of baptism.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70788930599193750822014-10-16T06:00:12.635-07:002014-10-16T06:00:12.635-07:00And you're just assuming and accusing, and not...And you're just assuming and accusing, and not answering the objections themselves.<br />There is no such thing as Feeneyism, and if you look at the data, fr. Feeney has never been condemned for any doctrinal reasons but because he didn't show up in Rome when summoned, i.e. disobedience, but he was disobedient to noone since nobody told him why he had to show up in Rome, which is his right. And Suprema haec sacra, i.e. protocol 122/49 isn't a document from the Holy Office since it is not published in AAS, but a document of two cardinals to archbishop Cushing of Boston (who btw. boasted about not converting anyone in his whole ministry) and thus has even lesser authority. Moreover, some saints did believe in bod, but reserved only for catechumens, but not for those in "invincible ignorance" - especially missionaries. If invincible ignorance actually saved people then it would be a disservice to them to preach the Gospel since it would make them culpable.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-37001552245156236672014-10-15T11:58:28.710-07:002014-10-15T11:58:28.710-07:00Marko,
You are falling into the heresy of Feeneyis...Marko,<br />You are falling into the heresy of Feeneyism. Baptism of desire is very ancient - when a catechumin dies before being baptized, he is saved through a baptism of desire.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36617367608178430412014-10-15T10:57:11.913-07:002014-10-15T10:57:11.913-07:00If what i've said smacks of heresy then this s...If what i've said smacks of heresy then this smacks of heresy too: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed." Mystici Corporis Christi #22. Accusest thou Pope Pius XII of heresy?<br /><br />Church has never taught BOD. She has always said that all those who die as pagans, jews or non-catholics will go to Hell(Florence), and She has always interpreted John 3,5 to be of literal meaning(Florence and Trent) and even anathematizes anyone who says that the sacrament of baptism is optional(Trent) which is very definition of BOD. Also She has always taught that nobody can be saved unless believing the Catholic faith(Florence). Church could never teach that one who doesn't even believe in Jesus can be saved. That is absurd and contrary to the Gospel and the Mission of the Church. Not even the Fathers taught BOD. Only two anybody can quote are st. Augustine and st. Ambrose, but even those two weren't consistent in themselves on the matter because in many places they speak that there is no mystery of regeneration or remission of sins without water, or that uninitiated aren't crowned. St. Gregory Nazianzen rejects BOD explicitly.<br /><br />But let just go by syllogisms of dogmatic facts.<br />I. Submission to Pope.<br />1.it is necessary for salvation to submit to a Roman Pontiff (if it is not then Boniface VIII who said this is a heretic)<br />2.into submission to roman pontiff/Church one enters by gate of sacrament of baptism(Trent, Leo XIII in Nobilissima Gallorum Gens and even canon law)<br />3.Therefore, it is necessary for salvation to be baptized<br /><br />II.Grace of Baptism<br />1.Grace of baptism is defined as remission of guilt of sins and temporal punishment due to sin(Florence and Trent) - this is being reborn in Christ, the grace of spiritual rebirth<br />2.BOD, according to all who advocate it, is not a sacrament, not equivalent to sacrament of Baptism and doesn't have the same effect and namely it confers only the remission of guilt of sin (first to say that were st. Thomas and st. Alphonsus Liguori and everybody else follows them) - therefore BOD doesn't make you reborn because it doesn't confer grace of baptism/spiritual rebirth<br />3.but Trent teaches that those who aren't reborn cannot be justified<br />4.therefore, BOD doesn't justify and consequently doesn't save anyone<br /><br />III.Virtue of faith<br />1.Without faith it is impossible to please God<br />2.Theological virtue of supernatural faith which justifies is received in Baptism (along with hope and charity) and that is visible from the old rite of baptism where the catechumen says that he wants Church to give him the faith, the faith which gives him life eternal<br />3.therefore, it is necessary to be baptized to be savedMarko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-89955418036226531272014-10-12T15:56:58.366-07:002014-10-12T15:56:58.366-07:00Marko, so you are rejecting the ancient tradition ...Marko, so you are rejecting the ancient tradition of baptism by desire then? That comment smacks of heresy.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75274755674158284982014-10-12T14:32:40.409-07:002014-10-12T14:32:40.409-07:00There is no invisible union to the Church. Only th...There is no invisible union to the Church. Only those who enter Her through gate of Baptism, and thus are washed in the laver of regeneration are united to Her, in Her and members of Her/Christ's mystical Body.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.com