tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post5487394631338651061..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Was John the Beloved assumed into heaven?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-54707483057873403732010-12-27T19:07:09.042-08:002010-12-27T19:07:09.042-08:00Bernardus,
Indeed there is great diversity of opin...Bernardus,<br />Indeed there is great diversity of opinion in this matter...what are we to do?<br />On the one hand there is St. Augustine and Dante, who say that John's body is in the earth. On the other, there is St. Thomas (and perhaps Lapide) saying that John's body has been taken up...<br />Dom Gueranger concludes with Dante and Augustine (and the "general opinion of the Holy Fathers") that John's body is in the ground somewhere.<br /><br />Ultimately, while I hate to differ from St. Thomas, I have to say that it would seem safer to conclude that John's body is in the earth; for it would seem that we ought not to posit such a great grace (of assumption to heaven) without clear witness from either Scripture or Tradition...and here we have received no clear witness. Hence, I maintain, as the most probable opinion, that St. John is dead and his body is in the earth -- following St. Augustine, Dante, Dom Gueranger, and many other Fathers and Doctors.<br /><br />By the way, you have a very good reading list (from Augustine, to Thomas, to Garrigou-Lagrange, to Marmion, to the Navarre, et al.)!<br /><br />Peace to you in Christ!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-29745467768993601712010-12-27T17:06:48.606-08:002010-12-27T17:06:48.606-08:00Blessings and Peace to you Fr. Reginaldus.
A coupl...Blessings and Peace to you Fr. Reginaldus.<br />A couple of things strike me when reading your commentary and going between other texts (St. Augustine, St. Thomas, Catena Aurea: John, The Navarre on John). One, in the Navarre it is noted that St. John does not mention the Transfiguration though it is explained that he may not have owing to the existence of the other Gospels. Still, I find that an interesting point. Two, there is the juxtaposition of St. Peter and St. John in this gospel passage being explained by Augustine and Thomas as active or contemplative. The Navarre expands this with Augustine who said St. John "soared beyond the flesh...beyond...the very reason of his thinking soul...beyond his very self,..." Pehaps St. John's purity of body and soul allowed him to be taken up to await Christ's coming. Look how he is placed at the cross with Mary...behold your son...behold your mother. I don't know, but all causes me to ponder, contemplate, these deep mysteries. You certainly help stir the soul to search beyond just mere words. I do wonder what counsels as Garrigou-Lagrange, Prosper Geranger or Columba Marmion would offer.<br /><br />You are continually in my prayers. Please pray for me.Bernardushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09343171766154713726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-33052427232659634332010-12-27T15:59:28.319-08:002010-12-27T15:59:28.319-08:00Fr. Capreolus,
On this point, I have perhaps done...Fr. Capreolus, <br />On this point, I have perhaps done some injustice to Thomas...<br /><br />I don't know about the Summa, but in his Commentary on John he very clearly states that he believes that after the Evangelist died, he was assumed into heaven (whether or not his body is glorified is left open)... cf. Com in Io. 2647: "We should say that he died and arose with his body indicated by the fact that his body cannot be found."<br /><br />This opinion is also held by St. Ambrose and Peter Damian. However, Cornelius a' Lapide mentions that the Council of Ephesus ordered that the relics of John the Evangelist be collected (among those of other saints), but some will say these were only second class relics.<br /><br />The real problem is that there seem to be no relics of John...hence, some believe that his body was taken up...<br /><br />Lapide seems to indicate that he beleives that John's body is buried somewhere in the earth (hidden away somewhere), but he does finally say: "Be this as it may, it is not possible at the present time to find any other relics of the body of St. John."<br /><br />So, I suppose there is some real question here...<br /><br />However, the relics of Moses' body have never been found, but we still don't usually think that he was taken up bodily into heaven (though some Jews do believe this).<br /><br />I hope that I have done some justice to the question... There is indeed a great deal of room for speculation in this regard...though I am quite convinced that John's body is at least not yet glorified.<br /><br />Blessings, and thanks for the comment!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-30538240713087132462010-12-27T15:50:39.212-08:002010-12-27T15:50:39.212-08:00@David (anonymous, 11:49pm),
I do not think that i...@David (anonymous, 11:49pm),<br />I do not think that it is likely that Enoch and Elijah now have glorified bodies, because Mary's Assumption and the glorification of her body are considered a "singular" privilege (by CCC 966). Christ and Mary are the "first-fruits" of the Resurrection and then the rest (cf. 1 Cor 15:23)<br /><br />Blessings to you!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75752863173649737682010-12-27T15:18:17.764-08:002010-12-27T15:18:17.764-08:00Reginaldus,
Doesn't St. Thomas himself make me...Reginaldus,<br />Doesn't St. Thomas himself make mention of this opinion--St. John the Evangelist's bodily assumption--in the Summa?<br />All the best,<br />Fr. CapreolusCapreolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07329413913112615954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91752372399923404562010-12-27T14:49:07.380-08:002010-12-27T14:49:07.380-08:00Has anyone discussed Enoch and Elijah as (possibly...Has anyone discussed Enoch and Elijah as (possibly) now enjoying the Beatific Vision in their flesh analogously with St. Thomas's discussion regarding Our Lord's enjoyment with respect to His Humanitas during His earthly life?<br /><br />Happy Feast of the Holy Innocents!<br /><br />DavidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66384394997676021012010-12-27T13:09:28.797-08:002010-12-27T13:09:28.797-08:00@Matthew,
You are quite right, no one entered hea...@Matthew, <br />You are quite right, no one entered heaven until after the Resurrection of Jesus.<br />Hence, it is clear that Enoch and Elijah were not taken up into heaven proper (i.e. the glory of Vision), but into the "heavens" meaning the upper regions. I do not know where their bodies are now, I suppose in some other universe -- certainly, not in/on earth.<br /><br />After the Resurrection, Enoch and Elijah received the Beatific Vision and enter heaven in their soul, but their bodies have still not yet been glorified (hence they are not yet in "heaven proper").<br /><br />This is obviously highly speculative and there are many options here. But we do want to maintain that only Jesus and Mary have their bodies glorified -- and that no one was saved before the Resurrection.<br /><br />Christmas blessings!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-19300667794325640392010-12-27T12:42:08.644-08:002010-12-27T12:42:08.644-08:00Something that has puzzled me for some time now is...Something that has puzzled me for some time now is the quesiton of how Enoch and Elijah(Moses?) were assumed into heaven before our Lord's Passion and Resurrection? As I understand it, no one was saved by the law and since these prophets lived before Christ's sacrifice and heaven was closed to those under the law of the old covenant, how could they enter heaven and "enjoy the vision of God" still in a state of original sin. <br />God is not limited and can do what He wills. Could this case be similar to the Imaculate Conception whereby the benefits of the resurection were experienced before they actually took place in time? <br />MatthewUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04219907505238891281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36962948085857386232010-12-27T12:32:58.424-08:002010-12-27T12:32:58.424-08:00@Nick, I like that reflection. Certainly a possibl...@Nick, I like that reflection. Certainly a possible interpretation!<br />Blessings.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4488941534244162142010-12-27T12:32:19.054-08:002010-12-27T12:32:19.054-08:00@Anonymous (9:16pm)
What I mean to claim is that t...@Anonymous (9:16pm)<br />What I mean to claim is that their bodies are not glorified...hence they are not in the state of beatitude which is heaven. They are certainly not in the earth, they are still united to their souls, they are alive, they are in some sort of paradise (it would seem), but not in heaven proper. <br /><br />I do not know whether their bodies are in this universe or in some other place, what I do know is that they are not buried in the earth, and they are not glorified, and they are in some containing place (whereas the bodies of Jesus and Mary are most likely outside all containing place, completely outside of the universe, in glory).<br /><br />A simple source for this is the Catechism which says that Mary's Assumption is "a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection." (CCC 966) Which means that no one other than Mary and Jesus have resurrected and glorified bodies. <br /><br />The tradition has always held that Enoch and Elijah were taken up, but not glorified...their bodies will be glorified at the end of time.<br />See my earlier article, where I deal with some of these issues: http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/02/transfiguration-of-christ-part-ii.html<br /><br />Also St. Augustine's last Tractate (which is linked in the article).<br /><br />St. Thomas talks about this a little in ST III, q.45, a.3, ad2 -- Elijah came down not from the "empyrean heaven" (i.e. heaven proper), but from some other place.<br /><br />I hope that this helps somewhat.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22754377624118910262010-12-27T12:16:43.971-08:002010-12-27T12:16:43.971-08:00Reginaldus,
You have a fairly developed position ...Reginaldus,<br /><br />You have a fairly developed position that "the bodies of Enoch and Elijah are not in heaven" - one that I've never heard before. What is your source for that belief? Or if you don't have a direct source, what theological considerations led you to that conclusion?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91171187207608853622010-12-27T11:55:43.496-08:002010-12-27T11:55:43.496-08:00"So I will have him to remain till I come&quo..."So I will have him to remain till I come"<br /><br />I read this in light of the Book of Revelation, that Jesus was speaking of His appearing to Saint John to reveal to him what was happening and what was to happen.Nickhttp://blogsofasoul.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com