tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post6076578638476416778..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: If Christ did not "open the womb" of his Mother, why was he presented in the Temple?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-91828773231171094032013-11-17T20:19:26.478-08:002013-11-17T20:19:26.478-08:00In the fall of man in Genesis, as part of the puni...In the fall of man in Genesis, as part of the punishment for sin, Adam and Eve are told that they were made from dust, and to dust they shall return. Among other punishments, Eve is told that her labor pains during childbirth would increase. Since Mary is born without the original sin of Adam and Eve, then it only makes good sense that she is not buried in the ground to turn to dust, but is lifted to heaven at the point of her death.(Like Elijah). Because Mary has no original sin, she also would not suffer the punishment of labor pains associated with child birth. No pain because her womb is not opened. Because she has no open womb at Jesus's conception, or birth, then she remains a virgin...... it kind of makes good common sense to me.a lay personnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87655816786281042732012-02-07T09:04:40.913-08:002012-02-07T09:04:40.913-08:00@G,
You say that "birth is a miracle" .....@G,<br />You say that "birth is a miracle" ... meaning that every birth is a miracle ... and so Christ's birth was just as miraculous as any other.<br />This is absurd ... it is not what the Church means when declaring that the birth of our Savior was "miraculous".<br /><br />I do describe a real birth ... and a physical birth.<br />That is precisely the miracle ... One physical body (Jesus') passed through another physical body (Mary's) without causing any rupture or harm.<br />If it wasn't physical, then it wouldn't be much of a miracle.<br /><br />You say that "like light through glass" is Puritan ... I answer that I didn't know that St. Augustine was a Puritan! My goodness, where all the Church Father's Puritans?! <br />Well then ... That would mean that the Puritans are far more ancient than I have ever understood them to be!<br /><br />And you say that "A woman of Mary's time would nto have described it as 'painful' but as 'hard work.'" -- What a fascinating statement. Could you provide some source? How do you know what a 1st century Jewish woman would think? Last I checked, there wasn't much record of women's psychology from those days.<br />Perhaps you are just asserting your personal opinion as a dogmatic fact?<br /><br />Lastly, Mary did indeed participate in the miraculous birth of her Son ... she was certainly at prayer when he was born ... I think that she experienced the beatific vision of heaven at that moment.<br />She willed what God willed, as he wills it, because he wills it.<br /><br />If you want a woman's perspective on this whole issue ... why not look to the revelations of St. Bridget? <br />http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/12/birth-of-jesus-revealed-to-st-bridget.html<br /><br />Humility, my dear ... humility before the great mystery. <br />The Holy Spirit will give understanding, if only we believe.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-82513701609535118442012-02-07T07:51:11.747-08:002012-02-07T07:51:11.747-08:00What is the difference between the Annunciation an...What is the difference between the Annunciation and the Birth? How about the fact that birth is a miracle, whether or not the baby "passed as light through glass." That description suspiciously implies, to me, that Christ was not truly born of a woman at all. It also smacks of a Puritan fear/ hatred of the body and bodily functions. <br /><br />What you describe is not a birth at all. Birth is incredibly physical. A woman of Mary's time would not have described it as "painful" but as "hard work." This work that women do is what sanctifies us. <br /><br />You seem to be asserting that Mary did nothing but lay on a mound of hay while Christ ... what? Passed through her without touching anything? Christ humbled himself - why shouldn't that mean he was /born/ in a physical sense? <br /><br />I'm asserting that she must have participated in her own sanctification in a physical way.<br /><br />-GAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61951322951314300522012-02-06T12:02:36.477-08:002012-02-06T12:02:36.477-08:00I find it amusing that on the Feast of St Agatha -...I find it amusing that on the Feast of St Agatha - Virgin and Martyr - Joe rails against purity and virginity and he shows his ignorance about the Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy and shows no familiarity with the Decretals of Pope Siricius - but, those with modern sensibilities are so much better than Holy Mother Church, Mary, and The Virgin Saint Martyrsartyrs.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-32431845198879789922012-02-05T12:46:40.333-08:002012-02-05T12:46:40.333-08:00Joe,
The "obsession" which the Church Fa...Joe,<br />The "obsession" which the Church Fathers had with physical integrity and virginal purity is rooted in Scripture itself.<br /><br />The particular instance you mention -- that the married priests would refrain from intercourse -- comes directly from the mandates of the Old Testament ... and there is nothing in the New Testament to indicate that there is any change.<br />Indeed, there is much to indicate that the same continued in the early Church ... and this is why a priest could not remarry if his wife died -- because he would not consummate a new marriage after receiving Orders.<br /><br />If you are interested ... there was an article sometime earlier on this blog (posted by one of the earlier contributors, not me) which discusses the issue of celibacy in the early Church.<br /><br /><br />As far as Mary's virginity ... if all it meant were that she was a virgin when she conceived, then why would the Church specify "virgin during birth"? <br />Explain that to me ... how is "virgin during birth" different from "virgin before birth", if "virginity" just means not having sex?<br />Also, what exactly would be the "mystery" of the 3rd Joyful Mystery? How would it be anything different from the Annunciation?<br /><br />Finally, the simple fact is that Mary's physical virginity in the act of giving birth was accepted more quickly than the Son's equality with the Father.<br />The fact that Jesus was born of a virgin without harming her virginity is a sign of his eternal birth of the Father (in which he did not split or divide or harm the divine essence).<br />That is why it is important to hold that Mary was a virgin in birth -- because the Son's temporal birth teaches us something of his eternal birth.<br /><br /><br />Well, the whole point of this article was simply to show that this verse from Luke's Gospel in no way contradicts the Church's teaching on the physical integrity of Mary's virginity.<br />That much, at least, should be clear enough.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-58102871457853917082012-02-05T12:01:49.810-08:002012-02-05T12:01:49.810-08:00Fr. Erlenbush, let me clarify a couple of things. ...Fr. Erlenbush, let me clarify a couple of things. First, sorry about the name confusion: I didn't think the first one went through so I send another message via the anonymous route, and I tend to go by Bill (William) but my first name's Joseph. Let's just keep it with Joe for simplicity. Second, as far as hurling insults, I intended no such thing! Your love of mental gymnastics is impressive, and quite necessary in many instances. I just don't think this is one of them. As far as I can tell, saying Jesus was born of the virgin Mary means that God was Jesus' father, and not a man, period. It seems to me that the early church decided to stretch this obvious meaning into all kinds of unnecessary dogma about perpetual virginity due to an imbalanced view of virginity's virtue (as compared with the married life). Why do I think that? Well just one example, in the early church it was frowned upon for married presbyters to have sex with their own wives, all in the name of "purity and virtue". Now if this doesn't reflect an imbalance (an an injustice to marriage) I'm not sure anything can. So just wanted to clarify that, and say keep up the articles...they're good sources of reflection.<br /><br />-JoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-44138765893999071142012-02-05T07:03:14.800-08:002012-02-05T07:03:14.800-08:00@Joe/Bill,
Two points:
1) The post was not meant t...@Joe/Bill,<br />Two points:<br />1) The post was not meant to prove the virginity of Mary, but to show that this particular verse did not disprove her in partu virginity.<br /><br />2) You are obviously far wiser than all the saints, mystics, Doctors, and Fathers of the Church ... certainly wiser than I ... indeed, you are one of those "super-apostles" of whom St. Paul speaks.<br />And, since you did not ask a question but only hurled insults ... I will happily set you aside.<br /><br /><br />But, btw, since you insist so much on the three legs of Scripture, Tradition, and magisterium ... why don't you give a Scripture passage, a Church Father, and a definition from the magisterium which says that Mary lost her virginity in giving birth?!<br /><br />I have the Scripture: "The VIRGIN shall conceive AND GIVE BIRTH to a son"<br />The Tradition: "He was BORN of the VIRGIN Mary"<br />and the Magisterial teaching: Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." (Lumen Gentium, 57)<br /><br />There is no other rational way to understand "virgin in giving birth" than to see that it refers to physical integrity ... since refraining from sexual pleasure while giving birth is no miracle.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-31133104032978613582012-02-04T21:31:55.401-08:002012-02-04T21:31:55.401-08:00Erlenbush, your love of mental gymnastics does you...Erlenbush, your love of mental gymnastics does you no credit on this one. There's nothing in scripure--deductive or inductive--to suggest this doctrine. Last time I checked you need all three legs of the "stool" of doctrinal authority to define something "de fide". Jesus opened Mary's womb, pure and simple, and only an unhealthy obsession with connecting purity to virginity would lead anyone to think otherwise. <br /><br />-BillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-45914168121504023022012-02-04T21:26:02.813-08:002012-02-04T21:26:02.813-08:00Erlenbush, your love of mental gymnastics does you...Erlenbush, your love of mental gymnastics does you no credit on this one. There's nothing in scripure--deductive or inductive--to suggest this doctrine. Jesus opened Mary's womb, pure and simple, and only an unhealthy obsession with connecting purity to virginity would lead anyone to think otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22008531019079201642012-02-04T14:40:38.999-08:002012-02-04T14:40:38.999-08:00Hi, Father, may God bless you.
This topic reminds...Hi, Father, may God bless you.<br /><br />This topic reminds me of the similar one: why did our Lord bother to be baptized (groans all around). Because, as you and others have patiently explained, he went through all the laborious channels of human life so he could sanctify those channels! He came to be one of us. He was circumcised, he was this, he was that. He was sweaty, he was poor. He then lifted our in-common flesh into heaven!<br /><br />I want to thank you for pointing out for me the relationship between the curse of the first born in Egypt and the subsequent offering of animals by Israelites later (even coins by Jews of today!) in their own land. Wow! To think how God sees us and how he orders everything. He did not forget the lives of the Egyptian children and animals who were caught up in the fracas of the Exodus (or any other worldly fracas). It shows how he takes no pleasure in death: death of the humblest of animals or any human, which is after all made in His likeness. And to also see the reverberations in Herod's slaughter of the Jewish innocents. History repeats itself, especially where sin is present.<br /><br />You wrote: "Frankly, I cannot help but suspect ill motive on the part of those who [assert Mary lost her virginity at the Nativity]." I agree with you. A slur against her always betrays itself by its stink of the demonic. I do not call the people who coyly make the slurs demonic, but I do so call the bad spirit(s) who are behind the scenes rejoicing at any slurs toward the object of their disgust: the highly favored (jealous!) creature elevated over them, praise God. Venerable Mary of Agreda made this clear to me, as well as reading select exorcism transcripts (with caution). How can people who (claim to) believe in a woman being impregnated by the Holy Spirit then lose their courage nine months later and think that physical reality must by then kick in, must by then prevail over God's abilities to stave it off? If God chose miraculous means in March, then He didn't let it all revert to commonness in December!Bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40874883780483100162012-02-04T10:55:49.987-08:002012-02-04T10:55:49.987-08:00@adoremus,
While I understand your point, it is go...@adoremus,<br />While I understand your point, it is good to realize that the phrase - "Jesus came forth from the womb in the same way that he entered" - does not really make much sense.<br /><br />Jesus didn't enter bodily into Mary's womb ... it's not as though he had a body and then miraculously passed through her womb to enter there and begin the process of pregnancy.<br />Rather, he took matter that was already within her body and made this into his body.<br /><br />Now, of course, both were miracles ... but they did not occur according to the same mechanics ... in fact, it would be a heresy to say that he entered the womb in the same way he came out (because it would mean that he already had a body before coming into Mary's womb).<br /><br />We need to be careful in how we speak ... lest we expose the faith to ridicule.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47458345055509958022012-02-04T10:52:00.537-08:002012-02-04T10:52:00.537-08:00Gregory,
While, to my knowledge, the Jews did not ...Gregory,<br />While, to my knowledge, the Jews did not have a highly systematic or explicit idea of original sin (as does the Church), yet they certainly understood something of being conceived in sin -- and this doesn't refer to a sinful act on the part of the parents, nor on the part of the child; but to a state.<br />"For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me." (Ps 50:7)<br /><br />This is why a sin offering was made for the child. This is also why the people payed the tithe -- because they knew that they started off (from the beginning) in evil.<br />There can be no question of this point: The Jews did not believe that children are naturally united to God through grace, nor that children start off as friends of God and confirmed in the good. Rather, there is a clear sense that children start off with an inclination to evil and a tendency toward sin -- they are not conceived as God's friends, but as God's enemies. It is only through the sacraments (for the Jews, those of the Old Law) that children become friends and sons of God.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-46296928973882359612012-02-04T10:46:22.739-08:002012-02-04T10:46:22.739-08:00@Kerstin,
It is not that the marital act is always...@Kerstin,<br />It is not that the marital act is always sinful, but the child is conceived without original grace (which means he is in original sin).<br /><br />Hence the sin "in which the child was conceived" does not refer to a sinful action (either on the part of parents or the child), but to the state of original sin to which all are subject (excepting Christ and [through a special grace] Mary).<br /><br />Hope it is clearer now! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-89748636062446812152012-02-04T10:15:32.705-08:002012-02-04T10:15:32.705-08:00Father,
what did you mean by "it was for the ...Father,<br />what did you mean by "it was for the sin for in which the child was conceived?" <br /><br />Thanks,<br />KerstinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13271137076251281122012-02-04T03:07:23.789-08:002012-02-04T03:07:23.789-08:00I would futher the glories of God, in such a manne...I would futher the glories of God, in such a manner, that being full of grace, Mary also did not need to take the ritual bath, as St. John the baptist did not need baptism. Jesus cleared it all up. Let it be so that all righteousness be done. Is there actually someone out there who thinks that the way Jesus got into the womb, is not the way he came out? Next, they will say, he wasnt ever there!adoremushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10905002166965448817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48520293009419720052012-02-04T01:13:27.728-08:002012-02-04T01:13:27.728-08:00Father,
First off, thank you for your clear and in...Father,<br />First off, thank you for your clear and informative discussion of the Virgin Birth. Excellent work.<br /><br />As you point out in your explanation of the presentation in the temple, Jesus was not in any way "conceived in sin." I am wondering, though, what the Jewish mind would have understood that phrase to mean in common circumstances. Of course, as Catholics we believe that all are born with original sin, aside from our Lord and our Lady, but would the Jews have had a concept akin to original sin? Or was there a different understanding?Gregorynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-59783950616455986722012-02-03T10:18:26.351-08:002012-02-03T10:18:26.351-08:00And, to be clear, it most certainly was NOT a tele...And, to be clear, it most certainly was NOT a teleportation.<br />None of the Fathers say it was teleporting ... none of the Doctors, none of the mystics.<br />All of them agree that Christ truly was born, which means that he came forth and passed through Mary's body.<br /><br />Teleporting would mean that Jesus's body when out of existence in one place and then came back into existence in another place ... this is not the teachings of the fathers and has nothing at all to do with the idea of a "subtle-body" or passing like light through glass.<br /><br />Just to be clear -- "Teleporting" is a silly idea and would end up meaning that Jesus wasn't really born at all.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-30950232113020908922012-02-03T09:44:39.580-08:002012-02-03T09:44:39.580-08:00"I have spoken to a obstetrician/gynecologist..."I have spoken to a obstetrician/gynecologist in the past. He told me that any woman giving birth in a normal manner (opening the womb) could not remain a physical virgin."<br /><br />Well, no one is denying the preservation of the physical virginity was miraculous. The question I've seen people often dispute online is whether the "mechanics" of the miracle included opening the womb (birth pains often also get discussed) or whether the very manner of the miracle excluded that. I've heard it phrased, "Was the miracle a miraculous 'stretching'? Or was it a passing-through Mary's belly in the manner of a subtle-body, a 'teleportation,' etc?"A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-9865791037979798872012-02-02T19:09:45.291-08:002012-02-02T19:09:45.291-08:00"I intend to present the argument that her wo..."I intend to present the argument that her womb was not opened as a theological certainty (based especially on the tradition of the Fathers) -- while, as you say, that she was a physical virgin in partu, is a dogma."<br /><br />And that seems a fair distinction.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-43390081253298089192012-02-02T17:51:41.433-08:002012-02-02T17:51:41.433-08:00from Bill Foley
I have spoken to a obstetrician/g...from Bill Foley<br /><br />I have spoken to a obstetrician/gynecologist in the past. He told me that any woman giving birth in a normal manner (opening the womb) could not remain a physical virgin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10293732895569951002012-02-02T13:05:13.210-08:002012-02-02T13:05:13.210-08:00@A Sinner,
Fair enough.
I intend to present the ar...@A Sinner,<br />Fair enough.<br />I intend to present the argument that her womb was not opened as a theological certainty (based especially on the tradition of the Fathers) -- while, as you say, that she was a physical virgin in partu, is a dogma.<br /><br />Peace. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66254501753708837972012-02-02T12:49:30.806-08:002012-02-02T12:49:30.806-08:00"Indeed, as stated above (and as you agreed),..."Indeed, as stated above (and as you agreed), it is absurd to quote this verse as saying that the womb of Mary was opened during birth."<br /><br />Well, what I agreed was absurd is quoting this verse to prove that the virginity was disrupted in partu.<br /><br />Protestants claiming "opening the womb" necessarily implies loss of the virginity in partu makes no sense, as you said, because all the women (except Mary) in history would have lost their virginity at least 9 months before their womb was first opened, so the two things can't be taken as equivalent.<br /><br />But my point was that this also makes the "opposite" argument less conclusive: we can't use the dogma of the virginity in partu to conclude anything, one way or the other, about whether the womb was "opened" because those are two separate things.<br /><br />Catholics are clearly required to believe the virginity itself was preserved in partu. It is less clear (when it comes to the dogmatic minimum) that we are dogmatically required to believe that this occurred in a manner ALSO implying that the womb was not opened.<br /><br />If it's the pious tradition, I'm fine with accepting it, especially if it goes back to the Fathers. But given that it's a detail that would be rather hard to know (even for Our Lady herself, unlike the question of the virginal seal itself, which would be rather more obvious to her)...<br /><br />Well, I'll simply say that while I've seen dogmatic statements clearly securing the virginity in partu, I've not seen much definitively teaching the "non-opening of the womb" except in writings that seem to incorrectly assume that the latter would be required to secure the former (or even which seem to assume they are the same thing, anatomically, which they most certainly are not).<br /><br />I'd call someone a heretic who believed the virginity was lost in partu. I wouldn't call someone a heretic who believed the womb was opened, as long as they still affirmed that the virginal seal was preserved.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-51440126289644644772012-02-02T12:24:33.880-08:002012-02-02T12:24:33.880-08:00@A Sinner,
I'm sorry, but I think it smacks of...@A Sinner,<br />I'm sorry, but I think it smacks of impiety to speak so bluntly of the anatomy of our Blessed Lady.<br /><br />In any case, your discussion of such matters doesn't even really fit to this article ... the point is that the Church Fathers hold that Jesus did not open the womb, and this passage of Luke does not say that he did open the womb.<br /><br />Indeed, as stated above (and as you agreed), it is absurd to quote this verse as saying that the womb of Mary was opened during birth.<br /><br />Now, if the womb was not opened (whatever we take that to mean), it is most certain that physical virginity remains.<br />Hence, there is no need to get into this extensive discussion of female anatomy ... the womb was closed and virginity was not harmed -- and whether or not an open womb would necessitate rupture of virginity is a mute point, because the womb was not open (else, our Savior would be naturally subject to the Law).Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4746706220259077562012-02-02T12:18:28.221-08:002012-02-02T12:18:28.221-08:00@anonymous, I'm glad that the article was help...@anonymous, I'm glad that the article was helpful!<br />(please, in the future, remember to use a pseudonym -- it helps me to be able to respond to comments more easily) +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-37968616941622983952012-02-02T06:38:26.566-08:002012-02-02T06:38:26.566-08:00Thank you for your well explained discourse on Mar...Thank you for your well explained discourse on Mary's perpetual virginity. As a former Protestant, I found this enlightening and believable. You have helped me finally 'get it' regarding this Church teaching. Thanks again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com