tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post6392011297571495525..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Does Christ "look down" upon us from heaven?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-74862825940271524302013-06-17T17:43:02.029-07:002013-06-17T17:43:02.029-07:004f080,
Do you notice the pathetic irony of citing ...4f080,<br />Do you notice the pathetic irony of citing a nihil obstat when you began this debate by disagreeing with the recent Papal magisterium, stating that the recent papal teaching is "deeply troubling"? <br />As I say, you miss-read Von Cochem, AND you miss-read the Popes.<br />Good day!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-34261946562468505902013-06-17T17:34:12.529-07:002013-06-17T17:34:12.529-07:004f080...
you are a buffoon, i have defended the ex...4f080...<br />you are a buffoon, i have defended the existence of material fire in both hell and in purgatory on this blog ... <br /><br />I don't think I'm in disagreement with Von Cochem ... I think you are misreading...Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4776531508742981622013-06-17T11:42:35.743-07:002013-06-17T11:42:35.743-07:00Fr. Martin Von Cochem's "The Four Last Th...Fr. Martin Von Cochem's "The Four Last Things" from TAN pub. was published in 1899 and has a nihil obstat and imprimatur. Fr. Von Cochem clearly indicates in the section on heaven that there are real trees, fruit, flowers, buildings in heaven. He also clearly says that heaven is a visible place. "If heaven is a definite locality, it must accordingly be a visible, not a spiritual kingdom; for a place must in its nature be to some extent conformable to those who abide in it." You may be to advance and enlightened to accept such a claim, but certainly it is no error or heresy to teach this. I suppose you also deny that in hell there is a material fire?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10088532728803464582013-06-16T20:34:41.965-07:002013-06-16T20:34:41.965-07:004fo80...
Your point isn't made any more reason...4fo80...<br />Your point isn't made any more reasonable by putting it in CAPITAL LETTERS!!!<br /><br />Are you suggesting that there is material in heaven (such as land, space, etc) such that there are bodies in heaven other than those of Jesus and Mary?<br />(you do realize that a "body" means a piece of matter, and not just a human corpus, yes?)Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-32724716767481728272013-06-16T15:33:52.575-07:002013-06-16T15:33:52.575-07:00WRONG! That is not what either of the quotations a...WRONG! That is not what either of the quotations above say. Garrigou-Lagrange clearly says that revelation DOES NOT ALLOW US TO DOUBT the existence of the place of heaven. Please read what you've cited a few times. It does not say what you say that it says, not at all. As for the possibly spurious citation from Saint Thomas, it is rather unclear what precisely is being said, and the "there is no place there" is not clearly a denial that heaven is in fact a place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-18892404096949206352013-06-11T12:03:42.894-07:002013-06-11T12:03:42.894-07:00@4f08...
I wish you would take the time to read th...@4f08...<br />I wish you would take the time to read the other articles which are cited and linked through this article ... you would find the answer there...<br /><br />"The words of Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange (who taught Bl. John Paul II and oversaw his doctoral work) are most helpful: “Heaven means this place, and especially this condition, of supreme beatitude. Had God created no bodies, but only pure spirits, heaven would not need to be a place; it would signify merely the state of the angels who rejoice in the possession of God. But in fact heaven is also a place. There we find the humanity of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the angels, and the souls of the saints. Though we cannot say with certitude where this place is to be found, or what its relation is to the whole universe, revelation does not allow us to doubt of its existence.” (From Life Everlasting)"<br /><br />And, From St Thomas: "In ST III, q.57, a.4, ad 2 (which is not in the oldest and best manuscripts) we read: “A place implies the notion of containing; hence the first container has the formality of first place, and such is the first heaven. Therefore, bodies need themselves to be in a place, insofar as they are contained by a heavenly body. But glorified bodies, Christ’s especially, do not stand in need of being so contained, because they draw nothing from the heavenly bodies, but from God through the soul. So there is nothing to prevent Christ’s body from being beyond the containing radius of the heavenly bodies, and not in a containing place. Nor is there need for a vacuum to exist outside heaven, since there is no place there, nor is there any potentiality susceptive of a body, but the potentiality of reaching thither lies in Christ.”"<br /><br />Note the words: "THERE IS NO PLACE THERE" from the Summa, and Garrigou-Lagrange specifies that the only physical realities in heaven are the bodies of Jesus and Mary ... pure spirits do not take up space, and so heaven need not be material for their sake -- but the only spacial reality in heaven are the two glorified bodies...Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-65366061838155876872013-06-11T11:53:37.021-07:002013-06-11T11:53:37.021-07:00Please cite Garrigou-Langrange on this. Look at Vo...Please cite Garrigou-Langrange on this. Look at Von Cochem's book from TAN, according to which there are many other physical things in heaven.<br />I am not looking for a fight, I am looking for information, education, but you don't seem to be able to provide it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-5332623503781851312013-05-22T14:13:00.152-07:002013-05-22T14:13:00.152-07:004f0805da,
You are being ridiculous, and looking fo...4f0805da,<br />You are being ridiculous, and looking for a fight.<br />I have already said that heaven is a place, insofar as there are two bodies present there.<br /><br />But, if you think that the angels or the divine essence take up space, then you are quite wrong.<br /><br />What, besides the bodies of Jesus and Mary, in heaven is physical? What other corporeal realities are there? None.<br />This is the teaching of St. Thomas and the classical Thomists ... it is explained very well by Garrigou-Lagrange, certainly the great tradionalist theologian of the pre-Vatican II era.<br />Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-76946653413439392782013-05-21T15:07:20.831-07:002013-05-21T15:07:20.831-07:00Look Father, Heaven must be a physical place, and ...Look Father, Heaven must be a physical place, and you will not face it. It is an error to deny that heaven is a physical place. You have not responded to me above. I hope you are hunched over scholastic theology manuals trying to figure it out and have not move on to something else. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55931629112188176542013-05-13T21:40:55.505-07:002013-05-13T21:40:55.505-07:00Elijah and Enoch are waiting in Paradise(of Adam &...Elijah and Enoch are waiting in Paradise(of Adam & Eve)which exists above the Earth and out of human sight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-75229137707644895782013-05-12T16:09:40.728-07:002013-05-12T16:09:40.728-07:00Hi, I would love to have seen an answer regarding ...Hi, I would love to have seen an answer regarding the bodily presence of Elijah and Enoch who are in heaven. Elijah and Moses are mentioned in the transfiguration of Jesus in Mark and Matthew's gospel, so I would like to think that Moses is there too!<br /><br />The Son of God that I know personally and love, loved me before the foundation of the world, (Ephesians 1 v 4), not after the incarnation, as you appear to have stated!<br /><br />Sent with warm Christian love, <br /><br />Robert Glass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39282337866200076482013-05-12T15:37:06.862-07:002013-05-12T15:37:06.862-07:00What about Enoch and Elijah? I suspect that they,...What about Enoch and Elijah? I suspect that they, too, are in a place outside our physical universe, but not the same place where Jesus and Mary are.Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04843514873861242426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-19835278240300370892013-05-11T15:43:42.038-07:002013-05-11T15:43:42.038-07:00Jonathan,
Luke is relating history in that passage...Jonathan,<br />Luke is relating history in that passage ... the context makes it clear that he is stating these things as historical facts (not mere metaphors or parables).<br /><br />Of course not everything is historically accurate, excepting those things which are relates as being historical -- because the Bible is without error.<br /><br />As to you "reassembled in another dimension" comment ... perhaps you should read more of the Church Fathers, and watch a little less star trek.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3516374927710015802013-05-11T12:49:56.043-07:002013-05-11T12:49:56.043-07:00"It says so in the bible". Because every..."It says so in the bible". Because everything in the bible is scientifically and historically correct? Taken up sounds much better than he imploded to be reassembled in another dimension.<br />JonathonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36216930538381294102013-05-11T09:01:06.524-07:002013-05-11T09:01:06.524-07:00@Chatto,
I think that the words of that priest cou...@Chatto,<br />I think that the words of that priest could be a bit misleading ... Jesus really was "lifted up" in their sight. It says so in the Bible.<br /><br />However, he is correct insofar as this being "taken up" is more a sign for his departure than a directional indicator of his current location.<br /><br />Peace and good! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-36021766829692602832013-05-11T08:59:01.182-07:002013-05-11T08:59:01.182-07:00@Andy,
The body of Christ is present in the host a...@Andy,<br />The body of Christ is present in the host according to his sacramental species (a real, true and substantial presence), but you do no help to the Catholic faith if you act as though this in some way means that he has not ascended to heaven and is no longer physically present among us in his proper and natural species.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-17857959866959959722013-05-11T02:48:45.592-07:002013-05-11T02:48:45.592-07:00Were the saints whose bodies were raised at the de...Were the saints whose bodies were raised at the death of Jesus, and who appeared in Jerusalem after his resurrection, raised in a manner like Lazarus or in a glorified body? (Mt. 27:52)deepoctavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14607654315624415875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-86518259691073330462013-05-10T12:48:57.101-07:002013-05-10T12:48:57.101-07:00All very interesting, and thank you Fr. for all yo...All very interesting, and thank you Fr. for all your work.<br /><br />Jesus ascended into the clouds and disappeared from sight. If your interpretation is correct, His choosing to enter the Heavens in this manner seems a trifle misleading. He could have, for instance, simply vanished in the sight of all, after announcing that He was now going to Heaven, if Heaven bears no relation to any locality in the universe.<br /><br />I am also curious as to how the experience of angelic and divine presences by human beings can be reconciled with the Heaven-is-no-location idea. Assuming that these presences are intuited through some sensory means on our part [and please correct me if I am mistaken in that assumption] [and I think animals too may have some ability in this regard at least at certain times], one would be led to believe, based on the inference that what we sense, has some kind of physical existence, that when these presences go to Heaven, they go to a place that corresponds to some kind of physical location.<br /><br />Must we believe, as a matter of faith, that angelic beings are entirely other than matter?<br /><br />Regards,<br />YanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-77525413038636948592013-05-10T11:11:05.269-07:002013-05-10T11:11:05.269-07:00The glorified body of Jesus is present in our univ...The glorified body of Jesus is present in our universe, in each and every consecrated host, as well as in Heaven.<br />AndyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-2522046716943069432013-05-10T10:25:43.260-07:002013-05-10T10:25:43.260-07:00Thank you for the beautiful article - one question...Thank you for the beautiful article - one question came to me, though. Where are Elijah, Enoch, and possibly Moses' bodies? I am new to Catholic teaching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-12456412471133773992013-05-10T08:42:20.074-07:002013-05-10T08:42:20.074-07:00Father, great to 'have you back', as it we...Father, great to 'have you back', as it were!<br /><br />A priest I'm friends with seems to insist that, since heaven isn't "up there", that Christ wasn't physically 'lifted up' from the earth at His Ascension. Rather, the language of being lifted up is the way the Apostles described the indescribable. Something about the insistence on this interpretation bothers me - what do you think?Chattohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488939389859451887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-44185629692941729872013-05-10T08:41:36.325-07:002013-05-10T08:41:36.325-07:00A very thought provoking article. Just one questio...A very thought provoking article. Just one question. Since Jesus is God,wouldn't his glorified eyes be able to see without constraints of time and space?<br /><br />Happy Easter!t.a. krenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8901215325927220192013-05-10T05:40:05.901-07:002013-05-10T05:40:05.901-07:00Dear Father. And He bears with Him always the woun...Dear Father. And He bears with Him always the wounds of His Passion and so do the martyrs; they will have, as it were, bright markings where their flesh and bones were mortally wounded.<br /><br />Knowing that, what man would not desire the death of a martyr knowing that such a reward would be borne by them throughout eternity?Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71134457258342140312013-05-10T03:45:33.478-07:002013-05-10T03:45:33.478-07:00But what the contemporary popes seem to be insisti...But what the contemporary popes seem to be insisting is that heaven is not a place (at all).<br />This is very disturbing to me personally. The implications are theologically horrifying in terms of the resurrection, the eucharist, the final advent, the incarnation, etc. Heaven, in some sense, MUST be a place (of some kind). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-23475040642910974872013-05-09T18:43:35.719-07:002013-05-09T18:43:35.719-07:004fo80fda...
Well, I guess I don't see the conf...4fo80fda...<br />Well, I guess I don't see the conflict.<br />Heaven is a place, but it is not a place in our universe ... therefore, it is simply necessary to conclude that this place has no local relation to earth -- because local relation can be had only by two places contained within the one universe.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.com