tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post7339048119633702997..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: If God knows all things, why did he put Abraham to the test?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-53361933569141479072012-03-17T15:01:25.761-07:002012-03-17T15:01:25.761-07:00Father accept my sincere apology for due to my poo...Father accept my sincere apology for due to my poor English language, which is not my native one, I should have written SEEMS A COMPLETE CONFUSION.<br /><br />Quote:<br /><br />The Scripture says that "God put Abraham to the test" ... thus it could not have been Satan.<br /><br />As St. Paul tells us: "God, who, at sundry times and in DIVERS MANNERS, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by his Son." (Hebrews 1:1-2)<br /><br />Yes Father.<br /><br />But scriptures gives detail that he tempted, not tested, and according to:<br /><br />James 1:13 Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man.<br /><br /><br />God does not tempt humans, so He tested Abraham through the MANNERS of temptation. And temptation is not of God but of Satan.<br /><br /> St Paul (Hebrews 1:1-2)confirmed that the first and only time God spoke directly to humanity was through Jesus Christ. Obvious since only His Son could reveal Him, and since God was revealed by His Son ,it means that He was hidden within all the administering spirits.(Hebrews 1:14)<br /><br /><br />With regards to : and would make the story a horrific and diabolic nightmare<br /><br />I wonder father that with the exception of the Jews which God selected as His people, how the rest of the world, especially all those people butchered through the Jewish God????? Lived.<br /><br />To conclude:<br /><br />Now father I reflected on Matthew 7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.<br /><br />Isn’t it clear that with the same principle all good comes from God, and all evil comes from Satan.<br /><br /><br />peace and love in JesusCharleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09706437678246295034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-31086972104850657112012-03-06T17:13:42.353-08:002012-03-06T17:13:42.353-08:00I am surprised nobody mentioned the connection to ...I am surprised nobody mentioned the connection to James 2. <br /><br />James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; <b>and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”</b>—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.<br /><br />Beyond being an act of obedience, James says Genesis 15:6 ("Abraham believed God and it was reckoned as righteousness") is actually a prophecy that became fulfilled in Genesis 22:9ff! Revelation/Faith literally unfolded itself and blossomed. In this sense, it's akin to God making a prophecy of Christ and fulfilling that prophecy. <br /><br />What even fewer people know is that Saint James was simply drawing from the well known Jewish understanding of the situation, found in 1 Maccabees 2:52,<br /><br /><b>"Was not Abraham found faithful in trial,<br />and it was credited to him as righteousness?"</b><br /><br />This is speaking of Genesis 22 and yet applies the identical phrase "credited as righteousness" as Genesis 15:6!Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66513538205826916972012-03-06T08:24:42.935-08:002012-03-06T08:24:42.935-08:00@JP,
I think that the Church's teaching on Pau...@JP,<br />I think that the Church's teaching on Pauline authorship of the Letters is a bit more specific than Mosaic authoriship of the Pentateuch.<br /><br />To illustrate this point: We say "A reading from the Letter of St. Paul to the ...", but we have never said (in the Liturgy), "A reading from the first/second/third/forth/fifth Book of Moses".<br /><br />Further, the Letters themselves make a stronger claim ... "I write this with my own hand, PAUL" (of course, referring only to the signature, because the rest of the Letter was dictated) ... and "Paul, an apostle of God, to the Church of Jesus Christ in ..."Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47068180627715495952012-03-06T08:20:49.591-08:002012-03-06T08:20:49.591-08:00@Bender,
I think that the key point you have made ...@Bender,<br />I think that the key point you have made is well put!<br /><br />God is TEACHING through this incident ... and so it is not really about questions of Divine Command Theory, etc.<br />Rather, it is a divine pedagogy.<br /><br />Now, personally, I don't think that the Almighty is so much teaching us that we ought not to offer human sacrifice (he does that elsewhere, of course), but rather is teaching us that he will give his own Son for our salvation.<br /><br />Still, your essential point regarding divine pedagogy is right on. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-10040878822802477672012-03-06T08:18:27.706-08:002012-03-06T08:18:27.706-08:00@Cara,
Thank you for providing such a clear and co...@Cara,<br />Thank you for providing such a clear and concise explanation of the Thomistic reasoning ... indeed, I believe that this is the only way in which we can understand this passage ... quite clearly, Abraham had no problem with sacrificing Isaac, if God so willed.<br />Likewise, Moses, when writing, presents it as an eminently reasonable notion.<br /><br />A challenge to us today ... but that says much more about modern man than about God.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-13289481456566269122012-03-05T18:13:02.806-08:002012-03-05T18:13:02.806-08:00St. Thomas also had this to say on the subject: &q...St. Thomas also had this to say on the subject: "[W]hen Abraham consented to slay his son, he did not consent to murder, because his son was due to be slain by the command of God, Who is Lord of life and death: for He it is Who inflicts the punishment of death on all men, both godly and ungodly, on account of the sin of our first parent, and if a man be the executor of that sentence by Divine authority, he will be no murderer any more than God would be." (ST, II-II, q. 100, Article 8) And thus again, we have the "if God commands it" exception (which really isn't an "exception" so much as the ultimate rule), whereby it's not "murder" but instead a "slaying" by the command of God, as "due punishment", even though St. Thomas refers to Isaac as Abraham's "innocent son". (ST, II-II, q. 154, Article 2)Caranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-38950090914070012212012-03-05T15:27:24.297-08:002012-03-05T15:27:24.297-08:00Bender, do you think that St. Thomas was "qui...Bender, do you think that St. Thomas was "quick to miss the subtleties" when he said of "in [Abraham's] being willing to slay his innocent son" that "considered in itself it was contrary to right human reason in general"? You say yourself that "it is wrong to kill your child by human sacrifice", and "That is why God stopped Abraham". Therefore, you as well have raised the issue of "You shall not kill". As we may recall, God had already stated in Genesis 9 that "Anyone who sheds the blood of a human being, by a human being shall that one's blood be shed; For in the image of God have human beings been made." You raise the distinction between "kill him" and "offer to kill him", but even an offer to do wrong is wrong. If a man "offers" to murder someone, is it not already a crime even if he's "stopped" before he fully carries it out? He might even have had a noble intention such as to "eliminate suffering", but even then, the Church teaches that "an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must ALWAYS be FORBIDDEN and excluded." This Church teaching states no exception such as "except if God tells you to do it" or "except when it's God's will". Rather, it says "always". However, the explanation of St. Thomas was that there must be a "greater authority" exception to the general rule, citing Augustine: "For as among the powers of human society, the greater authority is obeyed in preference to the lesser, so must God in preference to all." And more simply, "When God commands a thing to be done... it is to be done." Thus, even that which "considered in itself it was contrary to right human reason in general" is not contrary to right reason when God commands it.Caranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-59689834201695754172012-03-05T07:50:02.957-08:002012-03-05T07:50:02.957-08:00Dear Father,
Thanks for the clarification. So Mos...Dear Father,<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification. So Moses is the authority behind the Pentateuch in the same sense that certain of St Paul's letters are attributed to him without him necessarily being the "author" in our general modern sense of that term?<br /><br />JPJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11110869137617783745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-71220494273030548312012-03-05T00:37:45.386-08:002012-03-05T00:37:45.386-08:00re: "You shall not kill"
It is interes...re: "You shall not kill"<br /><br />It is interesting that so many people insist on such a strictly literal interpretation of these passages, so quick to miss the subleties of what God is trying to reveal to Abraham (and to us). And yet, in that strictly literal take on it, they completely ignore the literal words God used --<br /><br />"2 He said to him: Take your only begotten son Isaac, whom you love, and go into the land of vision; and there you shall OFFER him for an holocaust upon one of the mountains which I will show you."<br /><br />(2 Ait illi : Tolle filium tuum unigenitum, quem diligis, Isaac, et vade in terram visionis, atque ibi <i>offeres</i> eum in holocaustum super unum montium quem monstravero tibi.)<br /><br />Reading this strictly, God did NOT tell Abraham to kill Isaac. He told him to "offer" Isaac in sacrifice. That is a key distinction that too many overlook. "Sacrifice (kill) him" and "offer to sacrifice him" are two different things.<br /><br />And, yes, it is wrong to kill your child by human sacrifice. That is why God stopped Abraham -- to teach him NOT to engage in human sacrifice (which was a common practice in that area at that time).<br /><br />In teaching us, God uses a variety of teaching methods. And one method in this Divine Pedagogy is the <i>arguendo</i> (assuming for the sake of the argument) -- accepting the premise of the opposite of what it is that you want to teach so that you can then disprove it and show how wrong it really is.<br /><br />Again, human sacrifice was a common practice of the time. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his book, The God of Jesus Christ, p. 54, that "sacrifice of the firstborn . . . was demanded by the ancestral religion of Abraham." So, perhaps God plays to Abraham's expectations that at some point He is going to ask for such a sacrifice. In addition to "testing" his faith, God does what Abraham expected precisely in order to smash that expectation and make it completely clear that that human sacrifice, killing your own children, are abominations.Benderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09322135500288738561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-27775065845825037352012-03-04T20:06:58.754-08:002012-03-04T20:06:58.754-08:00How are we to reconcile this story with the Fifth ...How are we to reconcile this story with the Fifth Commandment "You shall not kill"? And isn't murder an intrinsic evil, meaning it's always wrong everywhere at all times in every circumstance? Or is murder not wrong if God commands you to murder?Caranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14065594901931107632012-03-04T19:47:47.886-08:002012-03-04T19:47:47.886-08:00@Charles,
The Scripture says that "God put Ab...@Charles,<br />The Scripture says that "God put Abraham to the test" ... thus it could not have been Satan.<br />Indeed, your interpretation is radically contrary to the Church Fathers and would make the story a horrific and diabolic nightmare, rather than an angelic parable of the Love which the Father has for us.<br /><br />You write: "BECAUSE THE OLD TESTAMENT IS A COMPLETE CONFUSION REGARDING GOD" ... that is heresy plain and simple. You are a Marcioinite. You are betraying the Gospel of Christ.<br /><br />The God who revealed the Law is the same God who gave us his own Son.<br />As St. Paul tells us: "God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by his Son." (Hebrews 1:1-2)Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78675818852184619752012-03-04T19:43:57.625-08:002012-03-04T19:43:57.625-08:00@JP,
It was stated by the Holy Office (early 1900s...@JP,<br />It was stated by the Holy Office (early 1900s) that Moses is the true author of the Pentateuch.<br />So, yes, I believe we must hold that Moses "wrote Genesis" ... however, I am not convinced that we have to hold that he literally wrote it with his own hand.<br />Thus, it is possible that he is the author insofar as he is the source of the tradition which is recorded in Genesis.<br /><br />Hope that is clearer! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48284653238227730432012-03-04T19:42:27.305-08:002012-03-04T19:42:27.305-08:00@Omnia Probate,
The text of Genesis presents the m...@Omnia Probate,<br />The text of Genesis presents the matter as history.<br />Hebrews (and numerous others of St. Paul's letters) also present Abraham and Isaac as history.<br />The Church Fathers are unanimous in accepting it as history.<br /><br />Therefore, I do believe we simply must accept this as historical. <br /><br />And, when the Bible says "test everything" ... it means test the theories and practices of men, not to text the Word of God itself.<br />For the Scriptures are the norma normans non normata.<br /><br />If Paul says "Abraham thought such and such", then we can be certain, as a matter of faith, that Abraham thought such and such.<br /><br />Hope that is clearer now. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-90404128848931016792012-03-04T19:39:44.075-08:002012-03-04T19:39:44.075-08:00@Xristoforos,
God may tempt us (or allow us to be ...@Xristoforos,<br />God may tempt us (or allow us to be tempted) in order to show us our strengths and weakness ... to make these known to us.<br />But certainly he does not need to tempt us in order for him to know ... because he already knows us through and through, even before we were conceived he knew us and knew everything about us.<br /><br />Peace! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-25884515310832430722012-03-04T19:38:19.965-08:002012-03-04T19:38:19.965-08:00@Randy,
Most certainly we must believe that God k...@Randy, <br />Most certainly we must believe that God knows all things ... indeed, it would be heresy to say otherwise.<br />Dei Filius of Vatican I is a good place to look (as far as modern Majesterial texts are concerned).Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-9399496005923917292012-03-04T19:37:14.580-08:002012-03-04T19:37:14.580-08:00TO ALL: I apologize for the delay om getting the c...TO ALL: I apologize for the delay om getting the comments posted ... Lent is a busy time for parish priests!Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-6222615158869176632012-03-04T13:35:57.152-08:002012-03-04T13:35:57.152-08:00Tito Edwards,
I believe it was not God Himself th...Tito Edwards,<br /><br />I believe it was not God Himself that ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son,but the angel of Satan for the simple reason that, Satan knew that Isacc was the fruit of the Holy Spirit,since Sarah was barren and old.<br /><br />This to prevent the messaiah to be born.<br /><br />Genesis 22:1 says: After these things, God tempted Abraham.<br /><br />God according to scripture never tempts anyone.<br /><br /><br />The title of God in the old testament is not meant God Almighty.In fact there were good angels acting for God,and evil angels acting for god of the world, as Paul said.<br /><br />Satan through his angels was personifying God,and humans were never in the position to know which is which.<br /><br />Hebrews 1:14 says: Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister for them, who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?<br /><br />So "ALL" both good and evil angels are ministering spirits. <br /><br />Jesus said that HE IS THE TRUTH,and He came to reveal the Father.BECAUSE THE OLD TESTAMENT IS A COMPLETE CONFUSION REGARDING GOD.<br /><br />Paul made it clear that there are many gods and many lords:<br /><br />1CORINTHIANS 8: 5 For although there be that are called gods, either in heaven or on earth (for there be gods many, and lords many);Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09706437678246295034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42829696396355161172012-03-04T12:54:23.680-08:002012-03-04T12:54:23.680-08:00"How can this be explained?"
I tell my ..."How can this be explained?"<br /><br />I tell my Catechism class this was God's way of showing he was not like pagan gods such as Moloch.kkollwitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691145638703824456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48270099859175015702012-03-04T05:57:10.167-08:002012-03-04T05:57:10.167-08:00The mystery of God's knowledge through himself...The mystery of God's knowledge through himself is so beautiful and elegant, I think I would believe it on the aesthetic criterion alone if it was not well supported and logically deduced by the rest of Thomistic metaphysics, which only adds to and completes the beauty more thoroughly. Thank you!Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-79235900456598606102012-03-04T04:45:35.698-08:002012-03-04T04:45:35.698-08:00Dear Father,
Could you please clarify whether or n...Dear Father,<br />Could you please clarify whether or not the Church teaches that Moses wrote Genesis as you have stated in your article.<br />Cheers<br /><br />JPJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11110869137617783745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-20660964713059195702012-03-03T18:50:16.888-08:002012-03-03T18:50:16.888-08:00@Tito
God was prefiguring the crucifixion of His ...@Tito<br /><br />God was prefiguring the crucifixion of His only begotten son Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of many sins.Ikedihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13540787797137978805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40151624905476724002012-03-03T18:18:30.949-08:002012-03-03T18:18:30.949-08:00Fr. Ryan, according to the story, Abraham allegedl...Fr. Ryan, according to the story, Abraham allegedly "reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son", but he didn't actually go through with slaughtering his son. He stopped short. Therefore, apart from the Biblical gloss put upon the alleged events (there are no other reported human witnesses in the story), how was it "made known" that Abraham actually had "faith" rather than he just decided not to do it or even that it didn't actually happen at all? According to you, "It is a matter of faith (by reason of the fact that it has been revealed in Scripture)...". And so it seems the "test of faith" is actually whether readers of the Bible believe it simply "by reason of the fact that it has been revealed in Scripture". But the Bible also says to "test everything". How can we test whether the story of Abraham and Isaac is true?Omnia Probatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87857973337826128522012-03-03T15:25:59.558-08:002012-03-03T15:25:59.558-08:00Father, after reading this fantastic exposition I ...Father, after reading this fantastic exposition I have a doubt: is it possible that God allows us to be tempted to know our strenght and our weakness?<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />PD: Sorry for my English (I'm from Spain).<br /><br />Xristoforos TheotokouAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48428640260735801092012-03-03T14:50:19.557-08:002012-03-03T14:50:19.557-08:00You say that we "firmly believe God knows all...You say that we "firmly believe God knows all things past, present, & future." Is this de fide or just the predominant view of God and time? Is open theism heretical? <br /><br />-RandyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40303823114366139452012-03-03T10:42:17.726-08:002012-03-03T10:42:17.726-08:00Dear Father,
Thank you for the elegant exposition...Dear Father,<br /><br />Thank you for the elegant exposition of the meaning of God putting Abraham to the test. I don't think it ever dawned on me that Abraham was professing belief in the resurrection, even in a prototypical way. <br /><br />Also, reviewing your exposition of how Jesus knew the day and the hour of the Second Coming, specifically in His Humanity through His Beatific knowledge, but not from His Humanity, and that was the distinction He was making. You may have drawn this corollary somewhere, but with this statement, Our Lord is telling us that we cannot know the day nor the hour from our humanity either. We can pray that the tribulation be shortened, as He has directed us to do, (I'm looking forward to your exposition of that mysterious directive!), and to hearken to the approved messages of Our Lady to repent, pray and fast, but it is just plain useless to try and predict the time or the hour, because this bit of info CANNOT be figured out, and it is not going to be given by infused knowledge either, so just be ready NOW. (I can type it out so easily, how come I can't do it? To be always ready, that is...) It's amazing that the snake oil salesmen continue to do such a good business on this one. I guess PT Barnum was right. God bless you, Father.Michelangelonoreply@blogger.com