tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post887211110046470152..comments2024-03-25T17:14:03.066-07:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Ought we to pray for young children who have died?Father Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22862045268704274662011-12-06T17:55:08.034-08:002011-12-06T17:55:08.034-08:00RE: the idea that: "God offers salvation to u...RE: the idea that: "God offers salvation to unbaptized infants, a direct implication of God's universal salvific will"<br /><br />I have heard this expressed before, but there is no weight for it from history and tradition. A person who heard it once said I think, quite soundly, if it were offered then it could be rejected too and so then to the proper Hell itself.<br /><br />Every potential parent should be properly instructed on how to perform an <a href="http://www.saintsworks.net/Papers%20and%20Information.htm" rel="nofollow">emergency baptism in the case of miscarriage</a>. <br /><br />One can pray for God's special intervention, but one's duty is to do what one can do as a parent sacramentally first.De Liliishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02996997498617363853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-24603850414572849282011-11-27T20:11:42.506-08:002011-11-27T20:11:42.506-08:00Hi Fr.,
I hope this observation does not unnecess...Hi Fr.,<br /><br />I hope this observation does not unnecessarily belabor the issue:<br /><br />If God's offer of grace cannot be accepted, what kind of offer is it really? Doesn't the lack of a real offer contradict the universal salvific will, unless some other means of salvation [mystical, as you say] is available?<br /><br />Regards,<br />Yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72232394797400781722011-11-27T15:17:23.832-08:002011-11-27T15:17:23.832-08:00Hi Fr.,
Thanks for enlightening me. If unbaptize...Hi Fr.,<br /><br />Thanks for enlightening me. If unbaptized infants cannot co-operate with actual grace, then my previous post is mistaken. However, because of my experience as a father, I find the assertion that infants do not have free will to be passing strange. Perhaps you can address what the church means by free will in some more detail at some other time.<br /><br />Thanks again!<br /><br />Regards,<br />Yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-79613041662831557512011-11-27T14:38:14.467-08:002011-11-27T14:38:14.467-08:00yan,
I just don't have time to explain the who...yan,<br />I just don't have time to explain the whole thing about limbo and the universal salvific will.<br /><br />I will simply say that (very nearly) the entire tradition has affirmed limbo -- it was considered a near theological certainty that these children could not be in heaven.<br />Certainly, they cannot possibly co-operate with grace, since they lack the ability to exercise free will (not yet having use of reason).<br /><br />God offers grace to all ... these children cannot benefit from it through their co-operation ... perhaps there is some other (mystical) way that they can benefit from these graces, but nearly everyone in the tradition says no ... thus, on the supposition of limbo, God gives them grace, but they cannot make use of it (because they are conceived in original sin and they lack the use of reason); thus they are sent to limbo.<br />Now, I'm only explaining the theory of limbo ... I'm not saying we have to believe it ... I AM SAYING that you cannot say it is impossible, because the Church herself still says it is a possibility (and nearly the whole tradition affirms it as an obvious fact).<br /><br />In any case, if there is no limbo, then who was the Council of Florence speaking about when it said that those who die "in original sin alone" are sent to hell (i.e. limbo)?<br /><br />Well ... it is a complicated issue, so there is no surprise that we (all of us) have difficulty understanding it!<br />If yo type "limbo" in the search engine on the left side-bar of NTM, you will find numerous articles where I talk about this subject.<br /><br />With this comment, I will have to let my part in the discussion come to a close. <br />Thank you for the good discussion! :-)<br /><br />Happy Advent! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-26064956037596509982011-11-27T14:00:59.091-08:002011-11-27T14:00:59.091-08:00Hi Fr.,
Thanks again. I believe the matter is no...Hi Fr.,<br /><br />Thanks again. I believe the matter is now clear to me.<br /><br />Since that is the way things stand, I think it would be right to assert that unbaptized infants do go to heaven by a special act of grace, since otherwise, the general will of God that all men be saved would be thwarted. You have made it clear in previous posts that God gives sufficient grace for all men to be saved, and that the only thing that prevents salvation is our lack of co-operation. Since infants do not have actual sins, that would seem to imply that they cannot NOT co-operate with the actual grace of God, by which He gives the ability for all men to be saved. Otherwise, they would be sinning by rejecting the actual grace of God, which is impossible given the present definition and understanding of sin as applied to infants.<br /><br />The urgency of baptism in regard to unbaptized infants ought therefore to be developed and thought about in light of this understanding.<br /><br />It seems to me that the only way to argue against this position would be to argue that infants do indeed have an ability to reject the actual grace of God. Perhaps they do. Many people have observed that infants can act in apparently selfish ways. But this would seem to require a new nuance in our understanding of sin in the context of human cooperation with grace. In any event, such an argument would seem to be a slender reed on which to rest a conclusion that unbaptized infants go to limbo. Considering the universal salvific will of God, the greater likelihood is that they go to heaven. In fact, in view of that Will, this seems a theological necessity.<br /><br />Or am I missing something? Does the administration of actual graces only apply to the baptized? I thought it applied to all. Thanks as always for your thoughts.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-4384943779550459472011-11-27T12:17:23.555-08:002011-11-27T12:17:23.555-08:00@Yan,
Ok, now I see the question ... the answer is...@Yan,<br />Ok, now I see the question ... the answer is no, infants cannot be cleansed from original sin in purgatory -- the reason for this is because one who dies in original sin dies without grace, and without being in the state of grace there is no purification which will suffice (because the state of grace is not even present at all).<br /><br />Hence, the council of Florence defines that all those who die in original sin alone are condemned straightaway to hell [by which we mean limbo].<br /><br />However, the "hope" for salvation for these children is that they are somehow forgiven original sin before death; so that they die in the state of grace ... and then they would have no need of purgatory either (since they have no actual sin).<br /><br />Hope it is clearer now ... peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-50864505220580723912011-11-27T11:59:46.081-08:002011-11-27T11:59:46.081-08:00Hi Fr.,
Blessed Advent to you.
I did not mean to...Hi Fr.,<br /><br />Blessed Advent to you.<br /><br />I did not mean to assert that unbaptized infants could go to heaven with original sin. 'No sin in heaven' seems to me to be an unassailable assumption.<br /><br />I did mean to question the scope of purgatory however, if to do so would not destroy the hierarchy of afterlife possibilities.<br /><br />Basically, since we know so little about purgatory, and since purgatory is a place which cleanses souls from actual venial sin for certain, and since it does this [if I understand correctly] by virtue of the merits of the passion of Christ, I was wondering if there were an absolutely definitive theological or biblical reason why we might not extend the scope of purgatory to the case of purging unbaptized infants from original sin [since that also occurs by virtue of the merits of the passion of Christ, but through baptism ordinarily], or if there was some wiggle room to speculate that purgatory might be able to purge unbaptized infants of original sin [something it would not do in the case of unbaptized adults who also have mortal or even venial sins without some kind of baptism of desire being extant.]<br /><br />Just asking if it would be ok to speculate about the limits of the scope of purgatory, in a nutshell. NOT asking if any sinner, of any kind, can get to heaven without antecedent purification.<br /><br />Thanks again Fr. for your time.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-30999518680933808812011-11-26T21:31:29.764-08:002011-11-26T21:31:29.764-08:00Tammy,
I understand your frustration ... indeed, t...Tammy,<br />I understand your frustration ... indeed, there is so much confusion. <br />Also, I hope that my previous comment was not too forceful ... I just want to be clear that theological discussion is important and not simply a game in the clouds -- I'm sure that you agree! :-)<br /><br />As far as a practical pastoral solution, for a family who has just lost a child -- I emphasize that the child enjoys perfect happiness for all eternity, and that he will receive his body on the last day.<br />I do not explain that this happiness is only natural happiness, or that the body is not glorified. I most certainly do not explain that limbo is part of hell ... I don't believe that I even mention the word "limbo".<br />I stress that they gave their child the most fundamental gift: existence. I do not explain that the greatest gift (eternal life) is in question.<br /><br />When speaking with people outside of the context of greiving the loss of a child, I emphasize that limbo is not a bad place subjectively (though, I do tell them it is not heaven and, objectively, lacks supernatural life). <br />I emphasize that the worst case scenario is perfect natural happiness for all eternity -- I say, "It's not heaven, but I don't think we could accuse God of not loving them either - even the worst case scenario is as good as we can possibly imagine (using human reason alone)!"<br /><br />This should be consoling ... even the worst case is very good (subjectively especially). God most certainly does love these children - even if they are in limbo rather than heaven. <br />(and they could well be in heaven, though I think this is highly unlikely)<br /><br /><br />Finally, I do not get into the idea of "baptism of desire", because that is really not very applicable to such cases -- further, it obscures what baptism of desire really is, which is when a person (even implicitly) makes an act of faith in Christ while yet unable to receive baptism before death.<br />[hence, it is not really "baptism of desire" when we think of the desire of parents -- the desire (traditionally understood) is the wish of the individual]<br /><br />Hope all is more clear now! Peace and blessings to you for a holy Advent. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-15028963968248975432011-11-26T17:17:46.814-08:002011-11-26T17:17:46.814-08:00Im sorry, I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
...Im sorry, I didn't mean to be disrespectful. <br /><br />I am very sensitive to this issue as I know if my patients heard of their babies being at the edge of hell, they would have their guts ripped out through their hearts. THey wanted baptism and thier own bodies prevented access to the baby to perform it. <br /><br />I am not one of those people who assumes that every deceased person is in heaven because a nice God wouldn't damn people..I understand that hell has to exist for people who choose to turn their backs on God. <br /><br />If you asked me is the fate of a baptized infant who dies different than an unbaptized one, I would tell you yes, but if truth be known, maybe Im too much of a coward to even consider that they could be at the edge of hell. <br /><br />And yet for Catholic families who suffer stillbirth, it still seems to me (in practice) that the capacity for pastoral discussions on the topic of baptism by desire is awkward and uncertain. Could we come up with a workable consensus on this particular topic?Tammyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10475830965102885213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40141453664283391472011-11-26T14:38:33.417-08:002011-11-26T14:38:33.417-08:00@Tammy,
To be clear, there really isn't much c...@Tammy,<br />To be clear, there really isn't much confusion on this topic when we consider the tradition ... it is virtually unanimous: Children who die without baptism go to limbo (which is the edge of hell).<br /><br />However, in the past 40 years it has become popular for theologians to challenge the 2000 + year tradition (since its roots are in Judaism).<br /><br /><br />Finally, if you think that this discussion is for me nothing more than an "academic exercise" you are quite wrong -- even just this morning I was discussing this issue with a person who is struggling with a related problem.<br />There is great danger when so many priests and lay people completely ignore the tradition and just say "Well the children HAVE to be in heaven" -- that is simply not the case, they could very well be in hell (limbo). <br />I'm not saying one or the other is certain, but the Church doesn't have the "luxury" of allowing emotions to drive her theology -- hence, a pastoral approach must be rooted in the teaching of Christ (who said baptism is necessary for salvation), in the tradition of the Church (where we read that all children who die in original sin are sent to hell [limbo]), and in the work of theologians.<br /><br /><br />As I said above in one of the comments: If sacramental baptism is a mere "technicality", then Christianity is only a technicality as well -- if sacramental baptism doesn't really make a difference, then neither does Christ's death make a difference.<br /><br />Still, I'm not coming down on one side or the other of the limbo-issue; I am saying that you ought not dismiss the whole discussion as playing with "wiffleballs".Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-25755698777993000672011-11-26T13:49:00.294-08:002011-11-26T13:49:00.294-08:00I lept at reading this blog as well as the one it ...I lept at reading this blog as well as the one it was based on because this topic is not often-enough discussed in our society. <br /><br />I am honestly a bit befuddles that with all that has been written about Baptism of Desire in the entire history of the Church that you guys dont seem to have a consensus. I have had Priests visit my families and get all wound up not sure what to say and when I mention the Baptism of Desire, they respond something to the effect of "Oh well then, there is that". <br /><br />If the baby had been born pink and screaming, it isnt as if the baby would have been consulted prior to their Baptism, it would have been the intent and actions of the parents who would have made steps to securing the Sacrament for their child or not. <br /><br />I actually do agree with the original premise that praying for them is pointless...they are either in heaven or they are not. <br /><br />I hope that this exchange has been for readers more than an academic exercise because it isnt an academic exercise for the 6000 Catholic families who will suffer stillbirth each year (24% of the 25,000 stillbirths). <br /><br />While I respect the prerogative of theologians in ivory towers to bat this around like a wiffleball until the cows come home, if someone is a Parish Priest who has pastoral responsibility for his flock and gets called for deaths and crisis, you dont really have the luxury of not being able to have a cogent pastoral discussion on this topic.Tammyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10475830965102885213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-84609550420838861642011-11-26T08:32:27.649-08:002011-11-26T08:32:27.649-08:00@Nathan,
The general tradition is that we ought no...@Nathan,<br />The general tradition is that we ought not to suppose that any have received such special graces (as given to our Lady, John the Baptist, and Jeremiah), hence I'm not convinced that we can pray for the children in this way.<br /><br />However, perhaps we could pray for a "baptism of desire" ... though that really doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me -- either there is such a thing or there isn't.<br /><br />This is what I don't think we can do: Pray that God created the sacramental order in a way other than that in which he did create it ... hence, there is some difference between asking for a death-bed conversion for an adult and asking for a baptism of desire for an infant (the one we know is possible, the other is really beyond our [and the child's] scope).<br /><br />Peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-90170920804088480172011-11-26T08:26:03.564-08:002011-11-26T08:26:03.564-08:00@yan,
If they were to die with original sin, the C...@yan,<br />If they were to die with original sin, the Church teaches that they would be condemned to hell (i.e. limbo) - because the soul in original sin lacks supernatural charity, is not in the state of grace.<br />This is the very wording of the Ecumenical Council of Florence.<br /><br />Those who want to argue that the children are saved must argue that they are forgiven original sin extra-sacramentally (hence, they invoke baptism of desire and of blood).<br /><br />It is theoretically possible (though I don't see how) that the children could be forgiven original sin ... and then they would not go to limbo, but to heaven.<br />But they certainly cannot be in heaven with original sin.<br /><br />Hope that is clearer now! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-87388218483400758702011-11-25T21:49:10.018-08:002011-11-25T21:49:10.018-08:00I wonder if perhaps we might pray for the souls of...I wonder if perhaps we might pray for the souls of unbaptized infants in this sense: namely, given that God is in fact able (given the Immaculate Conception, the sanctification of John the Baptist, and many other instances and authorities) to give the gift of sanctifying grace to an infant in the womb, by whatever means or agency, and that this gift would be an unmerited grace, and not something given to every person, we could pray that God would have given this grace to the infant in question, thus allowing them to come to heaven. This would be analogous to the way in which we might pray for the soul of a man about whom we had no sure knowledge of the state of their soul at death, praying that they would have repented of their sin and been in a state of sanctifying grace at their death. Obviously, this is not at all the same way we would pray for the soul of someone in Purgatory, but it is still prayer for them, just of a very different sort. <br /><br />Of course, this is all predicated on the assumption that our prayers after the fact can affect the action of God in the past, a proposition which, although I have seen it defended and employed by Catholics, I am not sure of the Scriptural or Traditional grounding of; but given God's divine providence and perfect knowledge of the future, this seems to me to be a very reasonable proposition. I would be curious to see what you think of the matter.<br /><br />In any event, I suppose we might at the least pray for the souls of the babies currently in the womb whom we suspect will die or whom we know will be aborted or miscarried, that God might give to them the grace of baptismal regeneration and salvation. Do you think this type of prayer would be useful or viable, and in accord with Scripture and Tradition? All of this is rather speculative, and I would very much appreciate your judgment on the matter.<br /><br />I very much appreciate this post and your blog, Father. Even when I disagree with your opinions, I always find myself edified and challenged by the Scripture and Tradition you present. Thank you.Captain Peabodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15649162745798097841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52114090539802683802011-11-25T16:39:20.065-08:002011-11-25T16:39:20.065-08:00Hi Fr.,
Thanks as always for your response. You ...Hi Fr.,<br /><br />Thanks as always for your response. You say:<br /><br />"... if any die with original sin alone on their soul, they are condemned to hell (i.e. limbo) -- this is the official teaching of the Church."<br /><br />Is that really correct? I thought that was the point of contention, at least in regard to infants. If there is no special recourse of God's grace for infants unbaptized, then certainly this discussion is cut and dried, and unbaptized infants must go to limbo, i.e. hell.<br /><br />Second point: if your analysis is correct, then is the justice of God in refusing unbaptized infants the opportunity to enjoy eternal beatitude best characterized as an instance of the lesson that God does not owe eternal beatitude to anyone?<br /><br />regards<br />yanyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-54352776748643528012011-11-24T17:41:19.575-08:002011-11-24T17:41:19.575-08:00Fr. Erlenbush,
Thank you so much for your kind co...Fr. Erlenbush,<br /><br />Thank you so much for your kind comments about my blog. <br /> Yes, I agree with you that these children cannot be in purgatory, and so your conclusion that we do not pray for them in the same way that we pray for the dead makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought about it that way. Your post is very clear and coherent and logical. I have been thinking about it all day! I am starting to write a follow-up post now, but it may take me a day or two! <br /> You also point out the sensitivity of the issue, and how carefully it must be handled with grieving parents and mothers who are remorseful about having procured abortions. This is the hardest part, I think! <br /> At any rate, I will be posting about it again soon. I very much appreciate your post and your blog!Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09927474235629912604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-68701181152639305402011-11-24T17:39:22.563-08:002011-11-24T17:39:22.563-08:00I would like to make clear that I do not advocate ...I would like to make clear that I do not advocate one position over another. I hope, pray, petition or beg, (whatever one want's to call it) that all unborn children do not go to hell (real hell; not limbo) since being unbaptized. One of the comments mentioned "Baptism of Desire" and I see no reason why this would not apply to unborn children. This may actually be the answer that I was searching for when there is a miscarriage.<br /><br />However, if a "Christian" father or mother aborts their child, I doubt they had the intention of baptizing the same child before aborting him or her. In this case Baptism of Desire goes out the window.<br /><br />My question was asked because there seems to be a very BIG reason why Satan wants to have our children aborted and I personally don't think that it is simply to get us to commit murder when he can garnish the same end results if he can get us to watch pornography, commit adultery or even deliberately and knowingly miss Sunday Mass.<br /><br />Again, there just seems to be more to it then just an act of murder (mortal sin) on the part of the participants.<br /><br />God bless.CM7https://www.blogger.com/profile/07438061668265715771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-55383224415500515542011-11-24T09:01:55.333-08:002011-11-24T09:01:55.333-08:00@Dr. Boyd,
Actually, I read that article on your b...@Dr. Boyd,<br />Actually, I read that article on your blog!<br />While, as you can see, I did not agree with the conclusion ... I don't think that we are necessarily so far off.<br /><br />Would you agree with me that these children cannot be in purgatory? (whether or not there is limbo, they at least are not in purgatory)<br />Therefore, would you agree that we do not "pray for them" in the ordinary sense of praying for the dead?<br /><br />To other readers ... consider checking out "Philothea on Phire", Jay Boyd's blog (I found it through Stacy Trasancos, so it has to be good!) ... http://philotheaonphire.blogspot.com/Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-14924485670080260092011-11-24T08:57:32.481-08:002011-11-24T08:57:32.481-08:00@DMJSD,
I think the main point of confusion here i...@DMJSD,<br />I think the main point of confusion here is that MichaelP was using very technical (and accurate) language ... which may surprise people at first.<br /><br />Limbo is part of hell, it is supernatural death.<br />However, I would emphasize more the positive side of limbo -- eternal natural happiness, perfect natural joy, love and knowledge of God as the Creator and even Father who loves us, resuscitation of the body, etc.<br /><br />Certainly, the child is not "punished" for the abortion [though there is a sense in which he is "punished" for original sin, but this is not subjectively considered punishment at all (by the child)]<br /><br />In any case, it is possible that the child could be in heaven even (though I think it doubtful).<br />But, even limbo - properly understood - should be pretty consoling to families (at least, this has been my experience) ... but we must present it very carefully and with great gentleness.<br /><br />So, really, you and MichaelP are not so much in disagreement ... at least, not as I see it. You are just speaking in different ways, and emphasizing different points.<br /><br />Peace to you! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-52187871054624369242011-11-24T08:51:34.227-08:002011-11-24T08:51:34.227-08:00@MichaelP,
While I agree with Bridget below -- tha...@MichaelP,<br />While I agree with Bridget below -- that abortion need not necessarily lead to the spiritual death of the child -- I do see something of your point.<br />I will add, however, that Satan does bring about the martyrdom of the saints, which leads to their glory -- he does this because he hates them, even though it ultimately hurts himself.<br /><br />Still, I do believe that the denial of baptism to these children is the worst part of abortion. <br />When it happens by miscarriage, there is no sin (obviously). But when a child dies unbaptized either because of the laziness of the parents or because of the sin of abortion - then we have a very serious sin.<br />Now, it is possible that these children would be in heaven - but I am one who believes more in limbo (which is technically part of hell).<br /><br />Still, in abortion counseling (for a woman who is sorry), I would emphasize most of all that the parents gave their child the most fundamental gift: Existence. That this existence will continue forever. That the child is in perfect (natural) happiness, for all eternity. That, on the last day, the child will receive his body risen from the dead (though probably not glorified) and will live for all eternity (a natural life, in limbo).<br />Thus, I emphasize the good side of limbo -- and I generally don't mention the bad side (which is that it is part of hell, supernatural death, and a complete loss of the glory of heaven).<br /><br />It is such a sensitive issue ... and we must be very careful.<br /><br />Thank you for your comment, it was very insightful! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-56324506993130181842011-11-24T08:42:52.903-08:002011-11-24T08:42:52.903-08:00@MichaelP:
Anyone who performs an abortion or pro...@MichaelP:<br /><br />Anyone who performs an abortion or procures one commits a grave sin and distances his/herself from God. Additionally, the child is deprived from a life where he/she could love and serve the Lord. Is that not bad enough that you must also condemn the child, the VICTIM, to hell (as opposed to limbo)? Does the child have a choice to whether he's born, miscarried, or aborted? Then why should the aborted child be punished for the sins of others? That's the same logic that causes people to promote the abortion of children conceived in rape...punishing the child for the sin of the father.DMJSDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-40283109649944312382011-11-24T08:42:30.875-08:002011-11-24T08:42:30.875-08:00@I am not Spartacus,
Thank you for your kind comme...@I am not Spartacus,<br />Thank you for your kind comment, please do keep me in prayer that I may always remain faithful to the tradition of faith! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-89331915351713569872011-11-24T08:41:05.164-08:002011-11-24T08:41:05.164-08:00@Fr. Michael,
I too saw the article ... I'm no...@Fr. Michael,<br />I too saw the article ... I'm not at all convinced.<br /><br />However, the point here isn't really about whether there is a limbo ... the point is whether these children could possibly be in purgatory (since only those in purgatory need or have use of our prayers).<br /><br />Now, there is no way that these children are in purgatory -- therefore, we ought not to pray for them.<br /><br />Thank you for your priestly ministry! +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-9419347560847191672011-11-24T08:37:39.092-08:002011-11-24T08:37:39.092-08:00@Bridget,
Agreed.@Bridget,<br />Agreed.Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-72251645418650133902011-11-24T08:37:20.511-08:002011-11-24T08:37:20.511-08:00@yan,
You do ask a good question.
The answer is th...@yan,<br />You do ask a good question.<br />The answer is that original sin is more like mortal sin than venial sin ... if any die with original sin alone on their soul, they are condemned to hell (i.e. limbo) -- this is the official teaching of the Church [you can look at my other articles on limbo for further explanation].<br /><br />The soul in original sin lacks the theological virtue of charity ... and this means that it cannot go to heaven (or even purgatory).<br /><br />Thus, those in purgatory have neither original sin, nor mortal sin, but rather venial sin (which no baby could possibly have).<br /><br />Hope that his clearer now. Excellent question. +Father Ryan Erlenbushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.com